Solo game balance: Non-Season Era 11 and 12 Data and Analysis

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

@Phoenix-1330

So you are saying Rage Flip is OP, not WW/Rend?

I am saying that build cleared 146 with less than 10K paragons and it needs to be nerfed. There is more than 1 way to do so.

[Phoenix-1330]

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

that build cleared 146 with less than 10K paragons and it needs to be nerfed

I guess we’ll have to just agree to disagree.

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

There is more than 1 way to do so

But you said that being able to group was the issue, WW/Rend doesn’t pull monsters together, Rage Flip does that.

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

@Phoenix-1330

I guess we’ll have to just agree to disagree.

Yes we agree that you ignore facts and that you ignore what Game producer said himself.

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Phoenix-1330

People are carrying on like Rend Barbs are just steam rolling through everything

@Phoenix,
I am going to ask a few barb-unrelated questions.

1. Do you think that wizards were overpowered in era 11?
2. Do you think that crusaders are overpowered in era 12?
3. Do you agree that wizards of patch 2.6.6 should be nerfed?
4. Do you agree that crusaders of patch 2.6.7a should be nerfed?

I want to get a sense of what you consider “overpowered” and if you think nerfs are appropriate for overpowered classes. If you think that the current iteration of crusaders is fine/not an outlier than I can not make a compelling case for any class to date to be considered overpowered. You are entitled to your opinion.

For example, some have said that no class should ever be nerfed. Although I disagree with this opinion, it is an opinion.

[Phoenix-1330]

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

Yes we agree that you ignore facts and that you ignore what Game producer said himself.

Yes, we’ll agree that you guys can’t even get an argument straight.

This started out with Barbs being OP, because someone did a 140 on PTR.

Then is was someone did 143 on live, who even said that Pylons did 75%+ of the work.

Then it was OP because someone did 145.

Then the argument changed to what someone with 9K paragon did.

The it was about what someone with 8K paragon did.

Now we seemed to have reached the point where it’s OP because someone with 4K can do 120.

Dear lord, I’d hate to play a game of football with you lot. The goal posts would be spinning all around the stadium

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Phoenix-1330

Now we seemed to have reached the point where it’s OP because someone with 4K can do 120.

To save myself having to retype. Here is the data for sub 2.3K paragon players and how many cleared GR 125 or more in the America region.

@MicroRNA-1507

I looked at the era 12 data and only considered players at or below Free’s paragon of 2295 (his paragon at the time of the clear). I think that you would agree that crusaders are overpowered in era 12. There are 5 crusaders worldwide who have cleared GR 150 in non-season.

In era 12 in the America region, there are 9 crusaders who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.

In era 12 in the America region, there are 13 barbarians who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.

All the other classes are well below these numbers. There are two monks and 1 wizard that meet this criteria. For the other classes (necromancers, demon hunters, and witch doctors), there is no player in the America region that meets the criteria.

Therefore, they’re more barbarians players in era 12 in the America region that have cleared a GR 125 at less than 2.3K paragon than all other classes combined.

So the data indicates that the ww/rend build is one of the strongest builds (if not the strongest) for sub 2.3K paragon players to achieve GR 125 and above in non-season.

The problem is not about moving the goal posts. The question is there are many ways to categorize, stratify, and analyze the data. Irrespective of how the data is analyzed, the same conclusion keep being made over and over again.

[Phoenix-1330]

@MicroRNA-1507

@Phoenix,
I am going to ask a few barb-unrelated questions.

1. Do you think that wizards were overpowered in era 11?
2. Do you think that crusaders are overpowered in era 12?
3. Do you agree that wizards of patch 2.6.6 should be nerfed?
4. Do you agree that crusaders of patch 2.6.7a should be nerfed?

1. Can’t answer that as I didn’t play them.
2. Compared to what? It’s a new set with no real comparison. I will agree that they are faster than WW/Rend at the level that I have tried one.
3. From my understanding, they weren’t nerfed. The set was broken due to an unintended mechanic, which took three seasons to correct.
4. Honestly, no. I really couldn’t care what anyone else can do. Someone can do a 150 solo, great, I’ll applaud them and move on with my game. Did they do it fairly? Then that’s a whole different discussion to have.

[Phoenix-1330]

@MicroRNA-1507

there are 13 barbarians who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.

And there it is…13.

You’ve gone to all this effort because 13 players have done something you haven’t done.

That’s it, I can do no more, I’m going to get sent to the looney bin for laughing at my screen at work.

Peace

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Phoenix-1330

• Can’t answer that as I didn’t play them.
• Compared to what? It’s a new set with no real comparison. I will agree that they are faster than WW/Rend at the level that I have tried one.
• From my understanding, they weren’t nerfed. The set was broken due to an unintended mechanic, which took three seasons to correct.
• Honestly, no. I really couldn’t care what anyone else can do. Someone can do a 150 solo, great, I’ll applaud them and move on with my game. Did they do it fairly? Then that’s a whole different discussion to have

I appreciate your answers. From your answers, it seems that you base your considerations of relative strengths based on how well each class or build has played in your hands. It makes sense that you do not want to comment on classes where you do not have first hand experience.

I have taken a mathematical approach to looking at the issue of class balance. It is not based on my hands-on game player experience, but an analytical/mathematical approach.

@Phoenix-1330

You’ve gone to all this effort because 13 players have done something you haven’t done.

No. I do not care about the accomplishments of any one of even a handful of players. Simply stated, I was providing you data about how “low” paragon players who play barbarians in era 12 in the America region have the most GR125 clears of any class, because you claimed that barbs were weak at low paragons in comparison to other classes.

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

@Phoenix-1330

Honestly, no. I really couldn’t care what anyone else can do. Someone can do a 150 solo, great, I’ll applaud them and move on with my game. Did they do it fairly? Then that’s a whole different discussion to have.

Definitely not fantastic design and balance. This one particular Crusader at 10,176 Paragon is about +5 GRs above our expected. Something to look into for next patch!

That is what Game producer said about Crusader 146 clear. Just keep ignoring everything.

[Phoenix-1330]

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

Just keep ignoring everything

Just keep strawmanning everything. Good job.

[MicroRNA-1507]

That is one of the reason why I asked on a couple occasions on his thoughts on era 12 crusaders.

[Phoenix-1330]

@MicroRNA-1507

I have taken a mathematical approach to looking at the issue of class balance. It is not based on my hands-on game player experience, but an analytical/mathematical approach.

Look, I like statistics, they can tell great stories. But they can also be made to tell great stories.

I’ve spoken to people, people who have played, people who have tried variations. I’ve read the posts about what people are doing, and yes, I’m also basing my thoughts off my own experiences.

And while I will agree that it’s a minority of players that actually post on forums, your stats, while I can neither confirm nor deny them, just don’t line up with people who I know that are actually playing the game at that level.

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

@Phoenix-1330

My 120 season clear took over 50 keys, and I was behind the timer pretty much all the way, until I got lucky with pylons and density right at the end, and kicked in the season buffs at the right time.

If you can’t do more than that on Barb in season I must say you are noob. 1200 Paragon can be reached in 2-3 days of playing. And you say Blizzard should balance game around noobs like you?

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Phoenix-1330

I can neither confirm nor deny them

Three data sources were used in the OP and the statistics. Two are websites available to anyone. You can confirm all the worldwide data used by clicking on existing websites.

For the GR efficiency calculations, it is more complex. In post 21, Pe3eWe3e gave you the links that you need to confirm the data. First, you will need to get Blizzard API access. It is a relatively straightforward process to signup for Blizzard API access that allows you to obtain an access token.

The fact of the matter is the data and it analysis is correct. I made this transparent so anyone who doubts the data can check for themselves.

@MicroRNA-1507

1. Data Sources

• A. Blizzard’s API was used to download the entire final era 11 leaderboard and the current era 12 leaderboard. The era 12 leaderboard was accessed on January 3. The final era 11 leaderboard includes the top 2,000 players while the current era 12 leaderboard is top 1,000.
• B. Zero empathy’s website http://ranks.zeroempathy.org/e11 was accessed on January 4 to obtain the data for the top 10 solo worldwide (America/EU/Asia/China) for each class for era 11.
• C. https://hero.d.163.com/?page=0 was accessed on January 3 to obtain the top 10 solo worldwide (America/EU/Asia/China) for each class for the current era 12. Since there was a delay in updates to this website, I used the API to find a GR clear from China that occurred on January 3 that had not yet been included.

[Phoenix-1330]

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

1200 Paragon can be reached in 2-3 days of playing. And you say Blizzard should balance game around noobs like you?

So you’ve reached the bottom of the barrel…and then started digging it seems.

As for 1,200 paragon, I’ve always said I was a very casual player, hence the reason I don’t care what the top of the leaderboards are doing. I’m not naive enough to think I’m ever getting there.

I’m also not the one screaming for balance, and I’m cetainly not doing it with an argument I can’t keep straight, and don’t understand.

Nice try though.

You’re just lining up the straw men today aren’t you

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

Look at what other players are clearing.

Stop cry.

Blizzard should not balance around people like you. End of story.

If they nerf Barb it does not nerf your ability to stay casual.

[Phoenix-1330]

@MicroRNA-1507

The fact of the matter is the data and it analysis is correct. I am made this transparent so anyone who doubts the data can check for themselves.

But it’s not accurate. It’s already been discussed that certain clears are missing, and certain regions are missing. What’s to say there is not a lot more data missing as well?

As I said, stats can tell a story, they can also be made to tell a story.

[Phoenix-1330]

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

Blizzard should not balance around people like you. End of story

@Phoenix-1330

I’m also not the one screaming for balance

You’re not very good at this, are you?

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

@Phoenix-1330

I’m also not the one screaming for balance

So you are here to troll. Like I said before.