Solo game balance: Non-Season Era 11 and 12 Data and Analysis

General Discussion
22

Here are access links for current ERA:

Barbarian CH:
https://gateway.battlenet.com.cn/data/d3/era/10/leaderboard/rift-barbarian?access_token=

Barbaian EU:
https://eu.api.blizzard.com/data/d3/era/12/leaderboard/rift-barbarian?access_token=

Barbarian US
https://us.api.blizzard.com/data/d3/era/12/leaderboard/rift-barbarian?access_token=

Barbarian KR
https://kr.api.blizzard.com/data/d3/era/12/leaderboard/rift-barbarian?access_token=

Demon Hunter CH:
https://gateway.battlenet.com.cn/data/d3/era/10/leaderboard/rift-dh?access_token=

Demon Hunter EU:
https://eu.api.blizzard.com/data/d3/era/12/leaderboard/rift-dh?access_token=

Demon Hunter US
https://us.api.blizzard.com/data/d3/era/12/leaderboard/rift-dh?access_token=

Demon Hunter KR
https://kr.api.blizzard.com/data/d3/era/12/leaderboard/rift-dh?access_token=

You got the logic…

For other classes just use this:

rift-wd
rift-crusader
rift-wizard
rift-necromancer

You need to use your own access token.

All info you need is in ROWS and you can edit raw data using:
https://jsonformatter.org/json-editor

If you want to convert JSON data into format readable in Excel you can use:
https://www.csvjson.com/json2csv

2 Likes
23

Good job “table guy” , thanks for posting solid data.

3 Likes
24

Thanks for posting another wall of data, without really understanding what it is you’re posting, other than taking a not so subtle swipe at Barbs, which seems to be your only agenda.

Here’s some more data for you, that actually has context.

While taking a break from seasons I’ve been playing around with a few different classes and builds on non-season, rattling through GR90’s while leveling gems, trying out new sets, etc.

At Paragon approx. 1,500, my Rend Barb can do GR 90, on average in 3-5 minutes, depending on rift.

While messing around with other classes and builds, I am so far up to 5 builds that can do GR 90 faster, on average, than Rend Barb.

So please, tell me again how OP Rend Barbs are? :roll_eyes: :man_facepalming:

1 Like
25

Lets see if we can agree on some things in the wall of data.

  1. In era 11, the data shows that wizards were “overperperforming”.
    Do you agree with this statement? Yes or No
  2. Do you think that it was reasonable that in patch 2.6.7 that wizards were nerfed? Yes or No
  3. In era 12, the data shows that crusaders are the most “overperperforming” (even more so than wizards in era 11)?
    Do you agree with this statement? Yes or no.
  4. Do you think that it would be reasonable that in patch 2.6.8 that crusaders will be nerfed? Yes or No
  5. In era 12, does the data demonstrate that necromancer are the weakest class? Yes or no
  6. Do you think the necromancers should be buffed in patch 2.6.8? Yes or no
  7. To your knowledge, the data that is presented is accurate? Yes or no
  8. To your knowleddge, the data analysis was done as described? Yes or No
  9. To your knowledge, has Matthew Cederquist made several post about game balance (two of which were linked earlier in this thread)? Yes or no

The data that I presented does not inform what classes can speed run GR 90 @ 1,500 paragon. It also does not inform which classes can serve a RGK, trash killers, or zDPS in speed runs.

I am not going to tell you how powerful Rend barbs are. There is data for you in the OP and other posts of mine in this thread to assess and draw your own conclusion. The era 12 analysis is clear. Barbs are the second strongest class using distinct metrics. This thread has looked at top GR clears, GR tiers relative to leaderboard rank, and GR efficiency

4 Likes
26

That’s why your data has always been bad.

The top level clears don’t effect my game play, because I am not at that level.

Neither are you.

Neither is 99% of the player base.

Chant’s Wizards are still faster than Rend Barbs, even after their nerf.

But please keep ramming massive amounts of numbers down everyones throats to try and convince them that it suits your agenda.

27

That is why you can show better data? Yes or No?

Stop trolling.

4 Likes
28

There is an old saying data is not good or bad, it is just data. If you feel that they should balance around how quickly players of your paragon can speed GR 90s, I would suggest:

  1. Make a thread in general discussion where you can collect your data as well as that of others.
  2. Provide a compelling case to Blizzard about why they should balance around this criteria.
  3. Analyze the data in an unbiased manner to see which classes are quickest versus slowest.

Ironically, the two methods that are widely used to interrogae balance between classes are looking at the top end GR clears and GR efficiency. Both were analyzed here. I analyzed more than 21,000 data points. I look forward to you performing a more comprehensive analysis.

I look forward to seeing your evidence of relative speeds of builds/classes.

3 Likes
29

Analyzed 21K data points and came up with nothing more than a thinly veiled swipe calling for Barb nerfs.

It’s funny that you called for nerfs at 200%, many, many times, then when the multiplier was removed, you basically stopped posting, then when it came back at 150%, you stated that you always said it should have been 100%, ie, still calling for it to be nerfed.

Your data is bad because it’s only looking at the outliers. You are only looking at the top of the top of players, and wanting to draw conclusions that will effect everyone. Even the average player that will never get anywhere 9-10K paragon, will never get anywhere near GR 140-150, is going to be adversely effected by a nerf to Lamentation.

The irony of you asking for unbiased analysis of data, while extremely funny, will be completely lost on you.

30

So for era 11, there was 14,000 leaderboard entries analyzed for GR efficiency that takes into account paragon levels (Top 2,000 per class). So what is the disribution of paragon levels on the era leaderboards?

Paragon Level Entries on Era 11 Solo Leaderboards
>9K 22
8-9K 74
7-8K 215
6-7K 469
5-6K 769
4-5K 1367
3-4K 2688
2-3K 3989
1-2K 4275
<1K 132
Total 14000

Given this, ~80% of the data points in the GR efficiency calculation are for players below 4K paragon. You should look more carefully at the graphs in section 4.

If you do not like the table, then here are two graphs of the same data (pie chart and bar graph.

[Album] Era 11 Leaderboard Paragon Distribution
[Album] Era 11 Paragon Distribution on Solo Leaderboard

Note: The 22 entries above 9K paragon on the America region leaderboard in era 11 represent 13 unique players.

P.S. You should look at my post history more carefully. During the PTR, I advocated for the rend damage buff on lamentation to be 100% and felt that @200% rend, barbs would clear GR 144-146 in non-seasons. (As of now, the top barb @ paragon 9477 with rend @ 150% has cleared GR 146.) I will admit that I was wrong with my estimate (i.e., I underestimated).

I never claimed that this modifier should be remove altogether. When it was announced that the modifier was removed altogether, I again advocated for the buff to be 100%. I am the second post in Free’s megathread. You can search my username and post history with 100% to see what I advocated for during the PTR and in general discussion.

2 Likes
31

22 of 14K data points…soooo way less than 1%?

In fact you have to include all the way down to 5K players to break 10%?

You’re making this too easy.

EDIT: Actually, because I can’t make out what some of your tables are trying to say (I think it’s the way my screen is bunching them up), what level are those below 4K players clearing?

32

I think you are misunderstanding. Section 4 includes the entire leaderboard to calculate GR efficiency. Look at those graphs if you want to see how players less than 4K paragon are performing.

Also, in another post I only considered players @2.5-3.5K paragon, do you want to guess which class (and era) came out ahead in terms of their GR clear?

1 Like
33

So if I am reading your table correctly, people with 4K paragon are clearing GR120 56% of the time?

34

You are not reading the table/geaph correctly.

The x axis is the top GR clear of a player on the leaderboard.

The y-axis is a modified version of Prokahn’s GR efficency as described in the OP. For each GR level an efficiency score is calculated for every leaderboard player. The quicker the clear the higher efficiency. The lower paragon of a player making a clear, the higher the efficiency. The overall GR efficiency takes both clear time and paragon into account.

3 Likes
35

Awesome, thanks for that, the way it’s showing to me is making it very difficult to read some of the data, the text is wrapping etc.

36

Ok, so now we are down to talking about 4K paragon players.

I could double my paragon, and I’d still be 1,000 behind. It’s not even playing the same game.

At 1,500 paragon, without some major upgrades to gear and augments, I’d doubt that 120 was within reach non-season.

My 120 season clear took over 50 keys, and I was behind the timer pretty much all the way, until I got lucky with pylons and density right at the end, and kicked in the season buffs at the right time.

Getting lucky with pylon and density play is not an OP build.

You can dump all the data you want, but there is no data like actually playing and experiencing the build.

I love it when people say Rend Barb is enter rift, hold left mouse, pick up loot. It’s clear that they’ve never played it above low levels, and don’t understand the build doesn’t work at high levels without luck. Luck of maps, pylons and mobs.

For further evidence, take Free’s 125 non-season clear. He spent weeks and who knows how many keys to make that clear. One of the best WW barbs, who knows the dynamics of the build inside and out, with 2.5K paragon, and even he said his clear is not possible without pylons, and FoT.

2.5K paragon, one of the best players, struggling to clear 125, pylons doing the majority of the damage.

Let that sink for a bit…

37

Some builds can use pylons way more efficiently than other builds. If your build is giving you tools to pull monster to the pylons quickly and move fast throughout the rift it might be OP when compared to other builds that can’t do the same.

Looking at top clears is fair because this players are fishing for the good map with good monster sets, right pylons and right RG. So it is not only about their paragon level it is also about how many keys they are willing to spend to get the right rift.

You say you spend 50 keys… that is nothing. Try spending 500 keys.

What build, for what class is working at high levels without “luck”? Luck of maps, pylons and mobs? None.

2 Likes
38

Re posting this here. If we get this we would be able to analyse each set performance.

1 Like
39

No. This is not right at all. You can read how greater rift efficiency is calculated in the OP. It is a metric that incorporates leaderboard GR tier, clear time, and paragon levels.

I looked at the era 12 data and only considered players at or below Free’s paragon of 2295 (his paragon at the time of the clear). I think that you would agree that crusaders are overpowered in era 12. There are 5 crusaders worldwide who have cleared GR 150 in non-season.

In era 12 in the America region, there are 9 crusaders who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.

In era 12 in the America region, there are 13 barbarians who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.

All the other classes are well below these numbers. There are two monks and 1 wizard that meet this criteria. For the other classes (necromancers, demon hunters, and witch doctors), there is no player in the America region that meets the criteria.

Therefore, they’re more barbarians players in era 12 in the America region that have cleared a GR 125 at less than 2.3K paragon than all other classes combined.

So the data indicates that the ww/rend build is one of the strongest builds (if not the strongest) for sub 2.3K paragon players to achieve GR 125 and above in non-season.

I would encourage you to download the leaderboard data from the API for yourself. You can verify and validate everything I say. You will not have to rely on your personal thoughts and feelings or anecdotal evidence when there is a wealth of information available to you to see what perceptions are factually accurate and which are misperceptions.

I have mained barbarians since patch 2.6.7 went live. I have already cleared GR 119 with under 1200 paragon this season. This clear did not require extensive fishing.

For your seasonal barb, did you roll strength to cooldown reduction rather than resource cost reduction to cooldown reduction on your ancient augmented BK solemn vow? If you did, why? Are you planning on transitioning to a crimson variant?

2 Likes
40

It would be more telling if we could compare performance of different builds/sets and not classes. That is possible right now but it would need huge effort and time because it would have to be done manually.

1 Like
41

So you are saying Rage Flip is OP, not WW/Rend?

That’s highlighting my point.

People are carrying on like Rend Barbs are just steam rolling through everything, but that is so not even close to the truth.

Yep, Deathkiss already showed me that. But is that still comparing players upto 4K paragon?

Attack speed. That’s the only ancient I’ve seen, this season.

In those 50’ish attempts, I tried the Crimson variant. I tried with BK Swords, and IPB’s, also tried using both Mantle and Gauntlets in the cube. I even tried using Ignore Pain.

My 120 was done with WW6, BK’s, and Mantle in the cube. To be honest, I didn’t see a huge amount of difference between all the set ups. Other than a death with IPB’s was pretty much game over for completing the rift in time.