So if I am reading your table correctly, people with 4K paragon are clearing GR120 56% of the time?
You are not reading the table/geaph correctly.
The x axis is the top GR clear of a player on the leaderboard.
The y-axis is a modified version of Prokahn’s GR efficency as described in the OP. For each GR level an efficiency score is calculated for every leaderboard player. The quicker the clear the higher efficiency. The lower paragon of a player making a clear, the higher the efficiency. The overall GR efficiency takes both clear time and paragon into account.
3 Likes
Awesome, thanks for that, the way it’s showing to me is making it very difficult to read some of the data, the text is wrapping etc.
Ok, so now we are down to talking about 4K paragon players.
I could double my paragon, and I’d still be 1,000 behind. It’s not even playing the same game.
At 1,500 paragon, without some major upgrades to gear and augments, I’d doubt that 120 was within reach non-season.
My 120 season clear took over 50 keys, and I was behind the timer pretty much all the way, until I got lucky with pylons and density right at the end, and kicked in the season buffs at the right time.
Getting lucky with pylon and density play is not an OP build.
You can dump all the data you want, but there is no data like actually playing and experiencing the build.
I love it when people say Rend Barb is enter rift, hold left mouse, pick up loot. It’s clear that they’ve never played it above low levels, and don’t understand the build doesn’t work at high levels without luck. Luck of maps, pylons and mobs.
For further evidence, take Free’s 125 non-season clear. He spent weeks and who knows how many keys to make that clear. One of the best WW barbs, who knows the dynamics of the build inside and out, with 2.5K paragon, and even he said his clear is not possible without pylons, and FoT.
2.5K paragon, one of the best players, struggling to clear 125, pylons doing the majority of the damage.
Let that sink for a bit…
Some builds can use pylons way more efficiently than other builds. If your build is giving you tools to pull monster to the pylons quickly and move fast throughout the rift it might be OP when compared to other builds that can’t do the same.
Looking at top clears is fair because this players are fishing for the good map with good monster sets, right pylons and right RG. So it is not only about their paragon level it is also about how many keys they are willing to spend to get the right rift.
You say you spend 50 keys… that is nothing. Try spending 500 keys.
What build, for what class is working at high levels without “luck”? Luck of maps, pylons and mobs? None.
2 Likes
Re posting this here. If we get this we would be able to analyse each set performance.
1 Like
No. This is not right at all. You can read how greater rift efficiency is calculated in the OP. It is a metric that incorporates leaderboard GR tier, clear time, and paragon levels.
I looked at the era 12 data and only considered players at or below Free’s paragon of 2295 (his paragon at the time of the clear). I think that you would agree that crusaders are overpowered in era 12. There are 5 crusaders worldwide who have cleared GR 150 in non-season.
In era 12 in the America region, there are 9 crusaders who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.
In era 12 in the America region, there are 13 barbarians who have cleared GR 125 or above for players with 2,295 paragon or less.
All the other classes are well below these numbers. There are two monks and 1 wizard that meet this criteria. For the other classes (necromancers, demon hunters, and witch doctors), there is no player in the America region that meets the criteria.
Therefore, they’re more barbarians players in era 12 in the America region that have cleared a GR 125 at less than 2.3K paragon than all other classes combined.
So the data indicates that the ww/rend build is one of the strongest builds (if not the strongest) for sub 2.3K paragon players to achieve GR 125 and above in non-season.
I would encourage you to download the leaderboard data from the API for yourself. You can verify and validate everything I say. You will not have to rely on your personal thoughts and feelings or anecdotal evidence when there is a wealth of information available to you to see what perceptions are factually accurate and which are misperceptions.
I have mained barbarians since patch 2.6.7 went live. I have already cleared GR 119 with under 1200 paragon this season. This clear did not require extensive fishing.
For your seasonal barb, did you roll strength to cooldown reduction rather than resource cost reduction to cooldown reduction on your ancient augmented BK solemn vow? If you did, why? Are you planning on transitioning to a crimson variant?
2 Likes
It would be more telling if we could compare performance of different builds/sets and not classes. That is possible right now but it would need huge effort and time because it would have to be done manually.
1 Like
So you are saying Rage Flip is OP, not WW/Rend?
That’s highlighting my point.
People are carrying on like Rend Barbs are just steam rolling through everything, but that is so not even close to the truth.
Yep, Deathkiss already showed me that. But is that still comparing players upto 4K paragon?
Attack speed. That’s the only ancient I’ve seen, this season.
In those 50’ish attempts, I tried the Crimson variant. I tried with BK Swords, and IPB’s, also tried using both Mantle and Gauntlets in the cube. I even tried using Ignore Pain.
My 120 was done with WW6, BK’s, and Mantle in the cube. To be honest, I didn’t see a huge amount of difference between all the set ups. Other than a death with IPB’s was pretty much game over for completing the rift in time.
I am saying that build cleared 146 with less than 10K paragons and it needs to be nerfed. There is more than 1 way to do so.
I guess we’ll have to just agree to disagree.
But you said that being able to group was the issue, WW/Rend doesn’t pull monsters together, Rage Flip does that.
Yes we agree that you ignore facts and that you ignore what Game producer said himself.
@Phoenix,
I am going to ask a few barb-unrelated questions.
- Do you think that wizards were overpowered in era 11?
- Do you think that crusaders are overpowered in era 12?
- Do you agree that wizards of patch 2.6.6 should be nerfed?
- Do you agree that crusaders of patch 2.6.7a should be nerfed?
I want to get a sense of what you consider “overpowered” and if you think nerfs are appropriate for overpowered classes. If you think that the current iteration of crusaders is fine/not an outlier than I can not make a compelling case for any class to date to be considered overpowered. You are entitled to your opinion.
For example, some have said that no class should ever be nerfed. Although I disagree with this opinion, it is an opinion.
1 Like
Yes, we’ll agree that you guys can’t even get an argument straight.
This started out with Barbs being OP, because someone did a 140 on PTR.
Then is was someone did 143 on live, who even said that Pylons did 75%+ of the work.
Then it was OP because someone did 145.
Then the argument changed to what someone with 9K paragon did.
The it was about what someone with 8K paragon did.
Now we seemed to have reached the point where it’s OP because someone with 4K can do 120.
Dear lord, I’d hate to play a game of football with you lot. The goal posts would be spinning all around the stadium 
1 Like
To save myself having to retype. Here is the data for sub 2.3K paragon players and how many cleared GR 125 or more in the America region.
The problem is not about moving the goal posts. The question is there are many ways to categorize, stratify, and analyze the data. Irrespective of how the data is analyzed, the same conclusion keep being made over and over again.
1 Like
- Can’t answer that as I didn’t play them.
- Compared to what? It’s a new set with no real comparison. I will agree that they are faster than WW/Rend at the level that I have tried one.
- From my understanding, they weren’t nerfed. The set was broken due to an unintended mechanic, which took three seasons to correct.
- Honestly, no. I really couldn’t care what anyone else can do. Someone can do a 150 solo, great, I’ll applaud them and move on with my game. Did they do it fairly? Then that’s a whole different discussion to have.
And there it is…13.
You’ve gone to all this effort because 13 players have done something you haven’t done.
That’s it, I can do no more, I’m going to get sent to the looney bin for laughing at my screen at work.
Peace 
I appreciate your answers. From your answers, it seems that you base your considerations of relative strengths based on how well each class or build has played in your hands. It makes sense that you do not want to comment on classes where you do not have first hand experience.
I have taken a mathematical approach to looking at the issue of class balance. It is not based on my hands-on game player experience, but an analytical/mathematical approach.
No. I do not care about the accomplishments of any one of even a handful of players. Simply stated, I was providing you data about how “low” paragon players who play barbarians in era 12 in the America region have the most GR125 clears of any class, because you claimed that barbs were weak at low paragons in comparison to other classes.
1 Like
Definitely not fantastic design and balance. This one particular Crusader at 10,176 Paragon is about +5 GRs above our expected. Something to look into for next patch!
That is what Game producer said about Crusader 146 clear. Just keep ignoring everything.
1 Like
Just keep strawmanning everything. Good job. 