So... About the whole 2h Rend idea

[Hadd-1524]

@MicroRNA-1507

Do you agree that the crusader nerf in patch 2.6.7a was justified and needed OR do you think they should have left crusaders alone and buffed all the other classes to reach the new crusader power level?

They did right nerfing it, but what drives a person to dedicate their time to enforce that to happen to a class they don’t even play is beyond me. That’s what “fun police” stands for, when Free says it. It’s not our freaking job.

@Salamandra-1698

if you get banned is because you break code of conduct, if as an adult you can’t follow simple rules is only your fault.

I follow the law in my country, so I don’t get imprisoned or killed, but I don’t feel like following every little rule in video game forums, I’m sorry. If someone behaves like a stupid mron I feel like saying it. Honesty is priceless for me. I feel some forums hurt our freedom of speech, because some may be offended, and I’m all about freedom of speech for everyone, even if they antagonize my POV.

@Salamandra-1698

By that logic no one even should ask for buffs neither, because devs know what they were doing right ?

Suggestions for buffs are valid because they can enable (so to speak) certain builds to shine or even new builds that would never see the light of day. In that way, players can provide insightful feedback with things that Devs may have ignored or overlooked.

The ask for nerfs, however, is more controversial. Few asks for nerf are really caring about balance (And I don’t think they should, at all), but more are into class wars, and the feeling of jealously because other classes are performing better than his/hers. In this last case, which is also more common, is beyond pathetic and should not be encouraged by any means.

@Salamandra-1698

No one is trying to start drama

Oh yeah, but if you check every PTR forums that’s basically what happens pretty much always.

@Salamandra-1698

i don’t insult people, the ones that try to start drama are always the guys that get banned from forums, not the guys that post math/tables or take data from high paragon clears.

Posting tables and math doesn’t mean you are right, specially when you are misguiding people with false interpretations biased on your own will and taste, or lack the intelligence or character to proper analyze it.

[Salamandra-1698]

I’m sorry. If someone behaves like a stupid mron I feel like saying it.

For things like that you get banned .
Don’t get my wrong, i’m not a SJW in fact i’m the opposite, but rules are rules even if we dont like them.

Barbarians atm are in state of denial, everything that is not following the barbarian hivemind deserves insults or their arguments are not valid even without any kind of logic behind.

That part of class wars it’s pure non sense, even if they remove every single class in the game that is not barbarian, you notice that WW it’s way stronger than any other barbarian build, slam is the second build and it’s like at 135-138 range.

Barbarian community has a lot of incoherence, back when we were at that big topic of lamentation nerf, people were saying that darkpatator was lying about on how good was flavour of time (darkpatator clear on ptr was without flavour of time). And now i see a lot of people saying that flavour of time it’s the only reason because WW it’s overperforming… (and this it’s totally a lie, if you watch the darkpatator clear, the conduit play was not amazing as people is saying, it only killed 1 elite).

Other fun thing is that some members of barbarian community are actually asking for WW damage buffs , and i don’t see the barbarian experts saying anything about that… but ya if micro post a clear or a table they come here to insta post counter arguments and talk non sense. (I still don’t get how people is actually asking for damage buffs for a build that did a 145 solo…).

Also all that non sense of “never nerf, just buffs” is what placed barbarian in a terrible spot for years (barbarian was never buffed at the same ratio of other classes and ended being super weak).

Barbarian community has to learn some coherence, if you insult or attack arguments of people that is saying that WW is overperforming, then you have to do exactly the same with the guys of your community that are asking for WW damage buffs… (but i don’t see this happening, in fact people was actually giving likes to people that was asking for 400% damage on lamentation during the don’t nerf lamentation topic …)

[Rage-13139]

Good lord, guys, give it a rest!

Nobody here appears to be convincing anybody else of their point of view. I’m sure you’ve all got other things to do that are both more useful and less frustrating!

[Hadd-1524]

@Salamandra-1698

For things like that you get banned .

Yeah, I accept it. Not that I really care, anyway.

@Salamandra-1698

Barbarians atm are in state of denial, everything that is not following the barbarian hivemind deserves insults or their arguments are not valid even without any kind of logic behind.

Too much time wasted feeding the trolls is what we have done wrong. We have logical and math enthusiasts player who can debate in any terms without insulting anyone. Perhaps you should consider then before making a general assessment of Barbarian community.

@Salamandra-1698

That part of class wars it’s pure non sense

If you say that it’s pretty obvious you haven’t been around for too much time. Even Pre RoS class wars is a thing in this game. You are plain wrong on this one.

@Salamandra-1698

you notice that WW it’s way stronger than any other barbarian build, slam is the second build and it’s like at 135-138 range.

Which is a shame. I wish other barb builds could reach 140s.

@Salamandra-1698

people were saying that darkpatator was lying about on how good was flavour of time (darkpatator clear on ptr was without flavour of time). And now i see a lot of people saying that flavour of time it’s the only reason because WW it’s overperforming… (and this it’s totally a lie, if you watch the darkpatator clear, the conduit play was not amazing as people is saying, it only killed 1 elite).

Regardless if a 10.200 paragon with optimal gear cleared high with FoT or not, I have said myself the amulet it’s just too strong. If anyone say otherwise I invite you to play until you find a good floor with a conduit or power pylon.

[Lodestone-1790]

@Salamandra-1698

but i don’t see this happening, in fact people was actually giving likes to people that was asking for 400% damage on lamentation during the don’t nerf lamentation topic

I can honestly say that I take those as jokes. If they are being serious then I personally would question their sanity. I am rather happy with where ww is right now. Not so much with any other Barb build.

But with that said everything micro posts has an undercurrent of malicious intent. And for me personally it seems as they are intended that way. If this is not the case then I own him/her an apology. But in all honesty I probably wouldn’t believe it if he/she claimed it is unintended. It’s just too frequent and blatantly malicious to be unintended.

[Hadd-1524]

Micro is a troll, and the best one I have ever found in these forums. He is so good he actually convinces a recent arriving player that he is the one talking serious and everyone else is offending and trolling him.

[Salamandra-1698]

I’m not sure if you are calling me “a recent arriving player” but i’m not, i play this game since release. in fact i played the good old days of vanilla WW (which it’s pretty similar to the WW we have atm).
Fun thing is we were clanmates for so long during the days of prepared crypts lmao.

When i talked about the class war thing i was talking of nowadays forums, i’m super aware that d3 forums during vanilla were a pool of hate.

[Hadd-1524]

@Salamandra-1698

I’m not sure if you are calling me “a recent arriving player” but i’m not, i play this game since release

I believe you, but I mean in the forums.

@Salamandra-1698

i’m super aware that d3 forums during vanilla were a pool of hate.

Yes

[Basshead-11137]

[Gasnick-2400]

Hadd don’t bother. Some just can’t stand the fact that barb can do 140 GRs now or even 135+ with 7500-10000+ paragon.

Even though WW Rend isn’t OP at all, just look at the number on non-season. If you need 3000+ paragon to clear a 120-125 GR with a WW Rend build it only shows, how weak this build still is, but that’s what you get by “balancing” classes arround 10000+ paragon with perfect gear.

All players with 800-1500 paragon and few or almost none augments and legendary gems arround 90-110 rank are getting s.cre.wed, but the nerf bandwagon only sees players with 10k paragons clearing 140+ GRs and if anyone manages to even clear a 145 or GOD FORBID 150 GR (even in non-season), he must be nerfed to the ground or to at least to max 140-142 GR clears range with of course near to perfect items and maxed out augments and legendary gems.

They don’t see that by nerfing any class, because of some dumb reason like clearing 150 GR by the 1-5% of the playerbase they hurt ALL the other 95-99% of the playerbase, which makes clearing 100-125 GRs with 1000-1500 paragon with some builds nearly impossible.

They just blindly follow any decission the devs make and anyone who disagrees with their vision of the game must be either a noob, hater or in some cases gets silenced or even banned from the forums, cause he has the guts to speak his mind even when he doesn’t even offends anyone at all, but has a different point of view…

PS.

Don’t know if it’s only me, but I can’t check the likes of anyones post anymore. Nothing happens when I click on the numbers near the hearts or the hearts itself… Guess it’s just another way, to make life harder for people with a different point of view…

[Hadd-1524]

It was me

But true… Guess they have disabled this feature.

[Free-1746]

@Gasnick-2400

and if anyone manages to even clear a 145 or GOD FORBID 150 GR (even in non-season) , he must be nerfed to the ground or to at least to max 140-142 GR clears range with of course near to perfect items and maxed out augments and legendary gems .

This is an incredibly accurate depiction of the current discussion and its (continual) level of absurdity. There’s this implicit idea circulated among balance enthusiasts that all classes should be within 1-2 GRs of each other, which is equally absurd given the games underlying mechanics and the different (and limited) way those mechanics interact with various conditions in GRs. What goes hand in hand for these same balance enthusiasts is that builds that perform above a given range should be nerfed–that such a nerf is justified.

This is deeply misguided as it ignores the game conditions faced by 99% of the player base.

It doesn’t matter if a 10k Paragon Barb can clear 145 or 146, because there are only a handful of such players in the much larger pool of players, and that much larger pool is not–I repeat, not over-performing. Top clears represent the very upper limits of a build’s potential and nothing more. They do not represent actual play experience for the other 99% of players, and that 99% is exactly who will feel a nerf the hardest.

There are, of course, exceptions. When it comes to Bazooka Wiz or AoV Sader, the recent nerfs–which, for the record, I did not support–came as a result of what the developers claimed were “unintended” mechanics or over-tuning. Both of those builds weren’t just clearing GR 150 or very close to it, they were doing it with non-Ancient gear, low gems, and increasingly less Paragon. In other words, those builds were offering a significantly lower barrier of entry to end-game GR pushes than all other classes.

But Lamentation at 150% is not over-tuned, not for Paragon 10k players, and definitely not for the vast majority of the player base. The clears speak for themselves (and before someone cites the 150 Seasonal clear, remember, that’s the Season theme doing all the damage, not the build).

For anyone who thinks a nerf is a good idea, remember: Nerfs don’t really hurt the players cracking those insanely high GRs. They hurt everyone else, taking power and enjoyment away from them.

And let us not forget: After years of being hot garbage, Barbs are finally powerful. We deserve our time to shine.

Frankly, y’all ought to let this discussion die. Folks who want other classes and builds to be on the level of Rend should be asking for that, and not asking for nerfs in the process. I keep saying this, but some of y’all got thick skulls.

Ask for buffs, not nerfs.

[Hadd-1524]

This paragon thing is cancerous.

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Free-1746

This is deeply misguided as it ignores the game conditions faced by 99% of the player base.

What is the metric that you feel should be used to assess parity between classes?

Do you still think that the metric that was used in the barb buff proposal is good enough or do you think a measure like “greater rift” efficiency is better?

@Free-1746

When it comes to Bazooka Wiz or AoV Sader, the recent nerfs–which, for the record, I did not support–came as a result of what the developers claimed were “unintended” mechanics or over-tuning. Both of those builds weren’t just clearing GR 150 or very close to it, they were doing it with non-Ancient gear, low gems, and increasingly less Paragon. In other words, those builds were offering a significantly lower barrier of entry to end-game GR pushes than all other classes.

For wizards, are you sure about this? This is what I found online for era 11 for the top 5 worldwide wizard clears.

Rank		BattleTag	Class	GR	Time	Paragon
1		花无缺#51108 <速度与激情>	wizard	148	14:33	10903
2		Lenio#2877	wizard	146	13:53	9362
3		darkpatator#2265	wizard	145	13:08	10723
4		fw6263#5301 <黄金团>	wizard	145	14:51	9677
5		Schm0n#2725	wizard	144	14:19	7839

Source: http://ranks.zeroempathy.org/e11.wizard

I also looked in game to see the gear of the top wizard solo clears GR145 and above. I could not check 2 of the clears since they are from China. The other two I could.

GR 146/LoD build
All legendary gems at max level (150 BoS, 150 BoT, 99 LoD)
13 Items (8 Primal, 4 Ancient, non-Ancient FoT amulet)
Augmented gear (all Primal & Ancient gear augmented, worse 137, majority with 150 gems)

GR 145/Vyr/Chantodo
13 items (8 primal, 5 ancient)
All legendary gems at max level (150 BoS, 150 BoT, 150 Gogok)
All 13 items augmented (worse augment 134, majority 150)

In Era 11, there were 19 clears by wizards worldwide at GR 141 or higher.
In Era 11, there were 7 clears by necromancers worldwide at GR 141 or higher.
In current Era 12, there are 93 clears by crusader worldwide at GR 141 or higher.
In current Era 12, there are 14 clears by barbarians worldwide at GR 141 or higher.

Source for era 12 data: 凯恩之角_暗黑破坏神4_暗黑破坏神3_暗黑破坏神2_暗黑破坏神（diablo）中文网

You can see how high crusaders numbers are in comparison to pre-nerf wizards. This presumably contributes to the developer’s decision making process.

[Phoenix-1330]

A whole heap more data with no context.

So there are actually less clears by Barbs with the buffs than there was by Wizards before their nerf. Interesting that that data flies in the face of an argument that was made yesterday.

Again, the nerf mob can’t keep their arguments straight. Just throwing numbers at everyone saying that it proves their point, when it does the exact opposite.

Sounds like they’ve now moved to “If you can’t beat them with brilliance, baffle them with BS!”

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Phoenix-1330

Interesting that that data flies in the face of an argument that was made yesterday.

Can you show me what argument I made (I do not speak for others nor do they speak for me) that is incompatible with the data that I just presented?

[Phoenix-1330]

@Phoenix-1330

So there are actually less clears by Barbs with the buffs than there was by Wizards before their nerf. Interesting that that data flies in the face of an argument that was made yesterday.

Nowhere does it say you made the argument.

Nice try though.

[Salamandra-1698]

Hadd don’t bother . Some just can’t stand the fact that barb can do 140 GRs now or even 135+ with 7500-10000+ paragon.

Even though WW Rend isn’t OP at all, just look at the number on non-season. If you need 3000+ paragon to clear a 120-125 GR with a WW Rend build it only shows, how weak this build still is, but that’s what you get by “balancing” classes arround 10000+ paragon with perfect gear.

Are you aware that even the strongest build ever AoV HF needs high paragon to work +135 ?.. by that logic AoV is weak then… (and we all know that is a lie)

All players with 800-1500 paragon and few or almost none augments and legendary gems arround 90-110 rank are getting s.cre.wed, but the nerf bandwagon only sees players with 10k paragons clearing 140+ GRs and if anyone manages to even clear a 145 or GOD FORBID 150 GR (even in non-season) , he must be nerfed to the ground or to at least to max 140-142 GR clears range with of course near to perfect items and maxed out augments and legendary gems .

Are you aware that paragon 800-1500 is considered super low paragon right ?, also any player can actually play a Zdps role (you don’t need paragon, and level up gems into the +130 range pretty easy). Devs are trying to balance the game into the 141 range (with endgame paragon and gear in mind), deal with it.

They just blindly follow any decission the devs make and anyone who disagrees with their vision of the game must be either a noob, hater or in some cases gets silenced or even banned from the forums, cause he has the guts to speak his mind even when he doesn’t even offends anyone at all, but has a different point of view…

Stop trying to start drama… i’m not a forum moderator, so i have zero influence in bans, if you get banned it’s because you break code of conduct, easy as that. At least hadd is brave enough to say that he is aware of his fault and he don’t care about the punishment. Also it’s pretty funny that you talk about haters… in your “amazing” squirt necklace suggestion you edited your entire post and deleted all your old posts… in these posts you were calling everyone that was saying your idea was bad haters xD…

This is a grinding game, i don’t like the paragon system, but we have to deal with it, if you want to go higher you need paragon easy as that. Fun thing is augments were introduced to nerf high paragon players and you keep complaining about level augments (are you aware that mainstat has crazy diminishing returns in terms of damage, and the augments reduced a lot the gap between high paragon players and low paragon players right ?.. )

[MicroRNA-1507]

So I used the API to download the final era 11 leaderboard as well as the current era 12 leaderboard for the America Region. Era are non-season. For the table below, I looked at only players with paragon 2500-3500.

The data makes intuitive sense. Clearly certain classes in the new era are not being played/pushed as much as evidenced by their lower clears, even though they were not affected by nerfs/buffs (demon hunter and witch doctors). Pre-nerf era 11 wizard at similar paragons (2500-3500) currently exceed both era 12 crusaders and barbarians that are almost identical to each other.

Average GR clear (paragon 2500-3500 on top 1000 non-season leaderboard)
	Wizard	WD	Necromancer	Monk	DH	Crusader	Barbarian
Era 12	114.5	108.4	98.8	115.1	113.7	121.8	121.2
Era 11	124.6	114.2	109.2	110.4	119.2	115	111.8

I have also calculated “greater rift efficiency” which corrects in part for differences in the number of players for each class. I still need to work on the graphics before I decide if it makes sense to make a post in general discussion. The era 11 data (14,000 data points) is similar to Prokahn’s analysis where necromancers were the weakest solo class at all but the top end of the GR levels.

At GR 120 top solo clear, era 12 crusaders and barbarians are more efficient than era 11 wizards. Era 12 barbarian are slightly more efficient than era 12 crusaders.