Set Items - Where D3 took a wrong turn

[shadowforge-11827]

@ShadowAegis-1537

Look if the difference in buffs to skill damage wasn’t some 50k+%, for some builds, then you would see some alternative to BiS that would still be able to get the job done.

What we would love to see in a game like this one, probably more likely for D4. Is to have alternatives to BiS gear that would still be strong enough to handle the content. Where the difference in power is a lot smaller than the 50k+%, more like 1-5% difference. Then it wouldn’t matter whether we are in BiS gear or not. Then the BiS gear could have a much smaller drop rate as long as the alternatives are easier to obtain.

this is incorrect. 1-5% in smaller difficulty scaling would make a larger difference then it does currently. right now 1-5% damage increase ins’t even a full gr level of power. but if the scaling in difficulty was only a couple percent then you could be talking about a full gr type difficulty increase in power. it’s all relative.

so yeah bis items would still be the same as they are now. 50k % or 1.2% doesn’t matter. if the rest of the game scaled in equivalent values. therefore you would be still hunting for your bis for every item on your character. theoritically you might end up with a couple more builds in variation. but for abosolute min/max there will only be one. and the vast majority of players I talk to focus on builds that are either pushing highest, running keys fastest, or the “rat run speed” type grouping setup

[Nataraja-11890]

@Childe-1683

However, given that the sets have been inconsistently balanced against each other, and in some cases the players have even voiced their dislike of the play patterns, I don’t understand what compelled them to want this.

errr, I believe the fact that Blizzard owns this game and in the end it is their game.
So they will do what they want!
We just pay once to rent it until they take it away.

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@shadowforge-11827

this is incorrect. 1-5% in smaller difficulty scaling would make a larger difference then it does currently. right now 1-5% damage increase ins’t even a full gr level of power. but if the scaling in difficulty was only a couple percent then you could be talking about a full gr type difficulty increase in power. it’s all relative.

so yeah bis items would still be the same as they are now. 50k % or 1.2% doesn’t matter. if the rest of the game scaled in equivalent values. therefore you would be still hunting for your bis for every item on your character. theoritically you might end up with a couple more builds in variation. but for abosolute min/max there will only be one. and the vast majority of players I talk to focus on builds that are either pushing highest, running keys fastest, or the “rat run speed” type grouping setup

It should be obvious that I am talking about D4 that is without infinite progression and a GR150 cap difficulty.

I am talking about a difficulty system that doesn’t mirror this one. Where you won’t need that extra percentages of damage to complete the content. Where those BiS items are not must haves. Will some still chase them. Sure so they can have the strongest gear in the game. But if it is not absolutely necessary to clear the content then you will see those that will use the alternatives that give the players enough power to clear the content.

Of course for this to work, D4 has to move away from the gear making the build. We need the player to carry a good chunk of the power. Where gear in D4 would only enhance the build instead of making it. If the devs of D4 does all of that and more then we will have a good game where only a few would chase after BiS gear. Instead of it being mandatory as it is now in D3.

@Nataraja-11890

errr, I believe the fact that Blizzard owns this game and in the end it is their game.
So they will do what they want!
We just pay once to rent it until they take it away.

But taking the silent approach won’t help us one bit. In fact it would embolden Blizz to do whatever they pleased, even though it might make the majority mad.

When we speak up as a community that we don’t like a certain direction then there is a chance that they might change it. But never speaking up means that you never take the chance that they might change their mind.

Which might make them think that you love what they are doing.

[Cobaltus-1135]

@shadowforge-11827

so, what is wrong with set designs? you will always be limited by a best-in-slot mentality. the pixels on the item would just be a different color. I don’t see how that is anymore interesting then the current system?

I agree. I’d rather have a set of items with a matching look/theme to them than a bunch of random legendaries that basically served the exact same purpose in the game.

[alex-26372]

It is already said in this thread - a significant problem with some sets is that they don’t alter your gameplay. All have some utility, damage reduction and damage increase if you meet certain conditions, like bubbles in DMO, wall of death in helltooth, discipline in UE etc. Now that LoD exists, there is no real reason to play a lot of these sets if their damage bonus is below x98.5. You lose one gem and the ability to equip FnR or EW but Squirt’s and free item choices make up for that in most cases (but not all).

On the other hand, we have sets that really change how you play: might of earth, vyr and jade are prime examples of good game design. None of them can ever be replaced by LoD because no matter how much you increase its damage, its gameplay will not emulate the sets. And that’s what I would like to see from sets: different gamestyles, even if it means 1-2 sets per character. We have LoD for everything else.

[Childe-1683]

I don’t understand what compelled them to want this.

So they will do what they want!

… That doesn’t answer what compelled them. That statement just restates that they were indeed compelled to do so.

I realize you’re not really disagreeing with my viewpoint, but I’m confused why you frame your response as a disagreement.

errr

[clueso-2790]

@shadowforge-11827

so yeah bis items would still be the same as they are now. 50k % or 1.2% doesn’t matter. if the rest of the game scaled in equivalent values. therefore you would be still hunting for your bis for every item on your character.

But you are assuming that every player actually wants to have the BiS gear or that no one would be okay with using an item that is like 2% less efficient (in whatever regard, whether be it offense, toughness, recovery, etc), even if there are other items that they may prefer because it suits their playstyle better even if it is slightly weaker or for other reasons.

There is only one group of players that will always only pick the best items and this are those that only or primarily play games like this to compete, but there are also other kinds/types of players whose main motivation to play is something else than being competitive.

@shadowforge-11827

and the vast majority of players I talk to focus on builds that are either pushing highest, running keys fastest, or the “rat run speed” type grouping setup

That is probably because D3 primarily revolves around Greater Rifts and does not offer too much motivation for other kinds/types of players.

[Childe-1683]

50k % or 1.2% doesn’t matter.

… No.

If using Danetta’s for Vault - Action Shot was 1.2% less efficient (even after accounting for movement speed between mob packs), I’d play it in a heartbeat. But right now it literally is behind by a factor of tens of thousands versus competitive builds currently due to compounding multipliers.

EDIT: New forum’s quote system is terrible.

[shadowforge-11827]

@clueso-2790

But you are assuming that every player actually wants to have the BiS gear or that no one would be okay with using an item that is like 2% less efficient (in whatever regard, whether be it offense, toughness, recovery, etc), even if there are other items that they may prefer because it suits their playstyle better even if it is slightly weaker or for other reasons.

I do assume that anyone playing a game for enjoyment. Would also be doing so to push there personal goals, whether that be better gear (it is a loot hunt game after all) or top of the leader boards.

@clueso-2790

and the vast majority of players I talk to focus on builds that are either pushing highest, running keys fastest, or the “rat run speed” type grouping setup

That is probably because D3 primarily revolves around Greater Rifts and does not offer too much motivation for other kinds/types of players.

I agree that the only motivation for playing a game based on loot hunt and player power would be to do so as efficiently as possible.

I think we both agree that d4 needs to be selective in what it takes out of d1-3.

I personally play the game for the various builds and player power growth that you can get. which is why i spent most of this weeks limited playtime gearing out jade. and seeing what i can do with it. because it is a unique game-play experience that you can only get via the set.

@Childe-1683

50k % or 1.2% doesn’t matter.

… No.

If using Danetta’s for Vault - Action Shot was 1.2% less efficient (even after accounting for movement speed between mob packs), I’d play it in a heartbeat. But right now it literally is behind by a factor of tens of thousands versus competitive builds currently due to compounding multipliers.

EDIT: New forum’s quote system is terrible.

agree’d, dennetta’s needs a buff since everything else is getting it. my point was that even without stupidly high damage modifiers (aka sets powercreap) in a future patch/game. it would still be balanced around those numbers so 1.2% in todays d3 is crap but in d4 it could feel like massive powercreap.

[clueso-2790]

@shadowforge-11827

I do assume that anyone playing a game for enjoyment. Would also be doing so to push there personal goals, whether that be better gear (it is a loot hunt game after all) or top of the leader boards.

Right, I agree, people play games for enjoyment.
But I also would add that pushing, power and leaderboards are not the only reasons for why people play this game.

Self-expression (like enjoying to play the fantasy of a Thundergod Barbarian or a Frost Wizard, etc) or a different and personally preferred playstyle - as Childe mentioned in his post where he said he would use Danetta’s instead of other weapons if that was only ~2% or whatever weaker - are also reasons for why someone would want to use an item that is not the BiS item as long they are not significantly weaker then the BiS item.

@shadowforge-11827

I agree that the only motivation for playing a game based on loot hunt and player power would be to do so as efficiently as possible.

There are already at least two people (but probably more) in this thread who disagree with that assessment. I and Childe would be perfectly okay with playing builds that are not as strong and efficient than the best builds.

For example: I personally prefer faster attacking builds and if the discrepancy in power between two 1handed weapons and one big 2handed weapons wouldn’t be so big, I would be perfectly okay to play the build that attacks faster with two 1h weapons, even if it is slightly weaker/less efficient overall than a build that uses a 2h weapon.

Then there are also people who may prefer a weapon that regularly creates a big AoE explosion over the BiS weapon, simply because they just like the big ‘BOOM’-effect, even if this weapon is overall (slightly) less efficient than the BiS weapon.

[Demonmonger-1509]

I really do not see how this would impact it at all. When looked at relatively, 493k and 16Q are separated by letters. It could be anything, but when you simplify it to 493K verse 16Q it is easy.

And that is what frustrates me, balancing this game should be easy!

[shadowforge-11827]

@clueso-2790

Self-expression (like enjoying to play the fantasy of a Thundergod Barbarian or a Frost Wizard, etc) or a different and personally preferred playstyle - as Childe mentioned in his post where he said he would use Danetta’s instead of other weapons if that was only ~2% or whatever weaker - are also reasons for why someone would want to use an item that is not the BiS item as long they are not significantly weaker then the BiS item.

let’s look at the game slightly differently. A mob has 100% hp and it takes you 10 hits to kill it. you get an 1.11% upgrade it now takes you 9 hits to kill that mob. if the new item doesn’t fit your playstyle but is an upgrade do you use it?

my reason for asking is that is very similier to your ~2%

@clueso-2790

would use Danetta’s instead of other weapons if that was only ~2% or whatever weaker

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@clueso-2790

Self-expression (like enjoying to play the fantasy of a Thundergod Barbarian or a Frost Wizard, etc) or a different and personally preferred playstyle - as Childe mentioned in his post where he said he would use Danetta’s instead of other weapons if that was only ~2% or whatever weaker - are also reasons for why someone would want to use an item that is not the BiS item as long they are not significantly weaker then the BiS item.

Agreed, back in the days of D3 vanilla I had an Indiana Jones Barb build that wasn’t meta but was a blast to play. Along with a Regen Seismic Slam Barb that I also enjoyed. Yes during that time period Barbs were my main.

[StonePro-11912]

First, I think that all 6-piece sets should have 7 pieces, but require only 5 of them for the full bonuses of the set. This would increase build diversity by allowing more variety in supporting items than what we have now, which is close to nil.

Second, I think the six-piece, one-skill set is the wrong direction for Blizzard to be going with sets, and disastrously so. It kills any build diversity in the game, and it leaves players out in the cold who might enjoy playing offbeat builds with “unpopular” skills; those skills having no “set” that improves their performance.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s fine to have a set like that, as long as for every one of those, there is another set that any class can wear, which focuses on performance bonuses rather than a single skill bonus.

This is not to say that a “performance bonus” cannot include skill bonuses, but that bonus must affect all skills for all classes, or all skills for a specific class, or a specific group of skills for all classes. Or there should be a comparable set for every skill available to the class.

For example:
“(2) Set: Your skill performance is increased by 20%.”
“(3) Set: The duration of all time-based skills is increased by 25%”
“(5) Set: All Passives gain an additional 100% of their stated effect.”

Any class could put on a set like that, with any skill and passive equipped, and enjoy a massive gain in performance.

Or, thinking of defensive skill groups only:

“(2) Set: Your Defensive skill performance is increased by 20%.”
“(3) Set: The duration of all time-based Defensive skills is increased by 25%”
“(5) Set: All Defensive Passive skills gain an additional 100% of their stated effect.”

Or, thinking of offensive skill groups:

“(2) Set: Your Secondary skill performance is increased by 20%.”
“(3) Set: The duration of all time-based skills is increased by 25%”
“(5) Set: All Offensive Passive skills gain an additional 100% of their stated effect.”

Any class could put on a set like the two above, with any skill and passive equipped (of the bonus categories), and enjoy a massive gain in performance. In addition, there could instantly be 5 new sets for each class that would make the player of any build happy!

[clueso-2790]

@shadowforge-11827

let’s look at the game slightly differently. A mob has 100% hp and it takes you 10 hits to kill it. you get an 1.11% upgrade it now takes you 9 hits to kill that mob. if the new item doesn’t fit your playstyle but is an upgrade do you use it?

my reason for asking is that is very similier to your ~2%

In general the answer for me is “No, I wouldn’t use this new item, even if it is an upgrade”, but to be more specific it depends on various factors and how much I do weight them.

For example: if my current weapon has some nice procs on it which for example giving me a temporal movement sand attack speed buff, if it has a proc that casts an interesting skill on attack and that in general is attacking faster, but the new weapon is 10% more efficient overall (which basically is your from ‘10 hits down to 9’ example, just with a few different numbers), then yes, I would keep the old item even if it is weaker/less efficient.

If my current item wouldn’t have this procs and only mildly interesting stuff on it, then I would eventually choose the new item which is 10% more efficient (or keep the old one, depending on if there is other stuff to take into account aas well).

However, if the difference in power/efficiency is like 50+%, then I most likely will choose the new weapon, because that is just too much of a buff to ignore.

[DrProfessor-1651]

I think the biggest problem with the d3 gear is the random attributes. I don’t mind a little variance in the quality of a rare item, it gives you that extra drive to keep grinding for the “perfect” one. But I have never gotten used to the new system where the item’s name literally doesn’t matter. An ancient Mantle of channeling can be awesome or a complete piece of crap depending on whether it gives me the boosts I want it to. I would much rather have all the character attributes earned through experience and leveling and a static set of bonuses for each legendary item… kinda like they had in d2! It’s just a little silly that the ancient legendary primal Sword of Whatever, could be that one sword that gave you a crap ton of strength… or maybe it gave you a crazy fast attack speed… hmmm… or maybe it was infused with poison, no fire! no lightning!! no, it made you more intelligent, in fact I know a wizard used it… i dunno i guess it was just like all the other “legendary” swords… it was a big hunk of scrap metal most of the time.

[Childe-1683]

@DrProfessor-1651

I have never gotten used to the new system where the item’s name literally doesn’t matter.

Yeah, this was / is really disorienting, coming from D2, or, well, any RPG or aRPG with named / unique items.

@ shadowforge : I’d gladly use Danetta’s Hatred if it meant kills in 10 hits while meta builds killed in 9 (to use the example). I’d be over the moon.

[Mercury-1900]

@Childe-1683

If using Danetta’s for Vault - Action Shot was 1.2% less efficient (even after accounting for movement speed between mob packs), I’d play it in a heartbeat. But right now it literally is behind by a factor of tens of thousands versus competitive builds currently due to compounding multipliers.

Danettas is more than viable for speed builds. It is in fact part of one of the fastest speed builds in the game.

Danettas, like almost all the other two item class sets, is for speed builds. It isn’t for pushing. It’s viable for one and not the other. You would have to be playing like a pudding to not chose Danettas when appropriate.

The differences between the damage scales compared to other load outs is irrelevant to Danettas purpose. It doesn’t need to compete with GR pushing scale damage to be viable as an item/play style choice.

[Mercury-1900]

@shadowforge-11827

it would still be balanced around those numbers so 1.2% in todays d3 is crap but in d4 it could feel like massive powercreap.

Are you sure about that? However arbitrary the absolute scale of damage is, however big bad and terrible some oh so big numbers are, 1.2% more DPS is still proportional to time.

Imagine taking 15 minutes to clear an area. You get a “massive” upgrade that gives you 1.2% more damage. And it feels big because you’ve totally balanced your hypothetical game around reasonable numbers.

You equip this new item, start a new game and clear the same area again. You’re doing a massive 1.2% more damage and now instead of 15 minutes, you clear the area in…

14 minutes 49 seconds.

11 seconds faster. So Massive.

[Childe-1683]

@Mercury-1900

It doesn’t need to compete with GR pushing scale damage to be viable as an item/play style choice.

I’m not talking about pushing, but I am talking about higher GRs. And I’m not talking about throwing Danetta’s on just for movement and using other skills for your actual damage. I’m talking about using Vault for damage, as that’s what the set suggests you should be able to do, for several reasons:

Vault: the Fantasy of Action Shot & Trail of Cinders with Danetta's Hatred

As a huge fan of this skill and of the fantasy suggested by the Danetta’s Hatred set, I want to outline some issues with how that fantasy is actually carried out, and possible solutions, to be optimistic about 2.6.7+.

So, what is the fantasy suggested by the Danetta's Hatred set?

Primarily, the fantasy is to do damage with the Vault skill.

Why is that the fantasy it suggests?

Danetta's Hatred does 4 things, each of which indicates this is the intended fantasy: (1) Makes Vault cost Hatr…

To preempt in case you don’t read the thread, I also am not talking about a 2-piece set on its own being competitive with 6-piece sets. I’m talking about it either combining with Natalya’s Vengeance or getting further supplementary legendary items / powers to make the gearing requirements comparable while elevating its GR capability.