Question. We use Rend Bloodbath, Ambo’s and Lamentation for 2 Rend stacks. We apply Rend Bloodbath with WW. A mob will have 2 Rend stacks with different durations. If the mob dies will it trigger Bloodbath twice at the same time?
If your question was directed to me, I have no idea. I’m not very good at testing to begin with.
As far as I know, Bloodbath triggers a single rend on a nearby mob, regardless of the number stacked on the dying mob (2). If that newly Bloodbathed mob is then hit by a WW, it will have a second stack of Rend, both of which will be detonated by Ambo’s.
I’m 99% sure this is how it works, because the old 4x Rend build was slightly misleading in its title. 2 Rends were actual Rends and stacked with Lamentation, 1 was a Bloodbath bleed that couldn’t stack with the other 2, and the final was a bleed from PE, which does stack but, like other bleed damage, is not modified by the Wastes set, Ambo’s, or Lamentation.
DieHarder, very cool idea. Comparing against the CC build it depends on what you can do with those cooldown slots. Anyone have thoughts?
Damage:
- CC gets 60% more damage via cooldown and the 30% attack speed via IB (useless)
- IK4 does not need cooldown at all on gear so all those slots can be rolled to DPS stats. Anyone guess how much this adds? Is it enough to offset the 60% CC gets?
Defense:
- CC gets ~25% from RCR and 30% armor from IB.
- IK gets 50% from ancients and gets more life per fury spent from belt/weapon.
Rend:
- IK4 gets a huge 2h Rend. How does this affect damage; is it a massive increase?
- CC gets a second 130% damage gem.
I read somewhere in one of these thread that 2H was 72% damage increase and 1H was 22%. I don’t don’t remember the in and oouts of the explanation, I did remember those two percentages.
I don’t see a 2H Rend build being viable. Dual-wielding grants an additional 130% crit damage from a second emerald, which is a direct multiplier to Rend’s damage. Attack speed doesn’t matter, but the advantages to using a second weapon are numerous: better healing, better Fury sustain, extra stats, and more.
Another way to think of it is this: aside from extra elite damage, what can a 2H weapon offer that’s superior to the IB or BK set, or Ambo’s + another weapon (maybe Sunkeeper)?
Not trying to burst your bubble or anything, but wanted to chime in and offer my 2 cents on how the overall Rend solo meta will likely pan out. Of course, if you’re pulling fast 100s with a 2H weapon and want to use that as a means of solo speed-farming, I think you’ve got a good thing going.
The damage per hit difference of a primal 2H mighty weapon against a 1h mighty weapon is 72%.
https://imgur.com/a/c0fodlm
((3665+4327)/2) / ((1990+2641)/2)
Going from 65% crit with 560% to 430% crit multi is roughly a 22% damage loss from losing the multi. It is just a multiplier.
(1+1*0.65*5.60)/(1+1*0.65*4.30)
If only those value are factored in Rend should hit 40% harder on a 2H. But there are other factors. With a 2H you will make it to the 2aps with WW no problem. Yet you will still have kinda lowish attack speed. But that is only a problem when entering a new pack. What I mean by that it takes the 2H a kinda bit longer to apply 2 stacks. Keeping the 2 stacks is no problem.
I don’t think that’s true. Have you seen Tom’s post?
Yes I have seen that. He is comparing attack speed of the same weapon type just different speeds. They tick faster but the dps is the same.
2H has way more damage per hit than a 1H. And yes ias has no effect on the Rend damage. It will just show ticks at a slower rate.
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Right, but WW isn’t doing any damage in the build. It’s negligible.
For all intents and purposes, Rend is the only thing dealing damage now. So if Rend deals the same damage regardless of our attack speed, attack speed is a useless stat and doesn’t contribute to our overall damage output.
On paper, that would seem to give 2H weapons an advantage, but the various bonuses, and the extra CHD offered by an off-hand weapon, outweigh what a 2H can offer.
That is why attack speed doesn’t matter but the base weapon damage does. Rend scales of damage per hit and factors in CHC/CHD as a multiplier on top.
The CHD from the offhand alone does not cut it. The base damage from a 2H is way higher than the damage you gain from that 130% crit damage if you already have 430% crit damage for example.
Agreed. But an off-hand weapon offers 130% more CHD, strength, CDR, and AD (which procs from hard-cast Rends). The IB set will offer Armor and another 30% multiplier, and the BK solves Fury problems and gives movement speed for better, faster pulls. Even if you equip Ambo’s + Sunkeeper, you can use Furnace in the Cube.
What 2H can match any of these setups? The IK BB? Not by a long shot.
I guess what I’m saying is that there’s no way a 2H can compete with the perks offered by dual-wielding. I could be wrong, but you see where I’m coming from?
I think AD is a hoax on a Rend build without WW and I highly agree with the video from Raxx.
If nothing changes all you care about is the season buff procs to clear the rift and those can whitewash your results.
I totally agree with you that 2 1H might provide buffs that will outweigh the damage bonus a 2H provides.
I hope we can get a definite answer on this stat problem. I do acknowledge that IAS or AS has no direct effect on rend but it will contribute faster stricken stacks and cooldowns. How to we weigh the value of this vs going with something like damage% on weapons?
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Let me first say again that I’m by no means a decent tester.
I don’t think that AD is a hoax. I pitted Bloodbath (the best source according to Tax and many other) against Lacerate plus AD (114%) and they were neck and neck. I have too deduce that it was the AD that made that possible, because I don’t believe it was the hard casting of Rend alone that made the difference.
I think it’s to early to tell. DW needs CDR on shoulders and gloves. 2H will use those two rolls for AD (CDR not needed). DW will also have to choose between AD or 10%/Str/CDR. 2H will have Str/AD/10% (CDR not needed). 2H I believe won’t be far behind DW.
@chris
Sure lets check.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16kUe9iED6gsNgpV9_OAI7hADuFGWezUNEtlgbD84yoI/edit?usp=sharing
A 2H is really slow and we are talking 24fpa WW at best.
A 1H (IB/BK) can get to 12fpa WW pretty easily.
https://codepen.io/anon/pen/aVrmdE
That is double the Stricken stacking speed.
We can compare 2 curves. A curve with 40% more base damage against a curve with 40% less damage but double the stricken stacking speed.
Double the WW tick rate is already enough to turn the 40% less damage per hit into a 20% damage bonus just from the speed gain. That is without any Stricken at all. (THAT IS FOR WW DAMAGE ONLY THOUGH! NOT REND! REND DPS is unaffected by TICK RATE.)
Now if we add Stricken.
Using a 1.0% Stricken a 1H with twice the tick rate of a 2H will do 114% more WW damage than a 2H once the 1H has reached 1,500 Stricken stacks
Using a 1.5% Stricken a 1H with twice the tick rate of a 2H will do 121% more WW damage than a 2H once the 1H has reached 1,500 Stricken stacks
Since sticken stacking is exponential that value increased more and more the more stacks you have.
For Rend damage we can check the damage per hit since that value will snapshot the Rend DPS.
When we check that damage per hit as a base for the Rend tick we will see that using a Stricken of 1.5% a 1H and a 2H will have the same Rend tick damage at around 250 1H ticks. At 5tps that is around the 50second mark.
Using a Stricken below 1.5% reaching that mark takes a bit longer.
After 1500 1H ticks the 1H Rend damage will tick for around 15% more damage.
What that means is that a 2H should clear trash faster with Rend only because Stricken hardly has any affect while a 1H will outperform the 2H Rend damage on boss fights > 1 minute.
Though…if you are still running your normal WW setup with AD and such like Darkpatator did in his 140 clear you will have insane WW and AD damage that will help clearing trash. Loosing Skull Grasp hurts WW damage quite a bit, so there is that.
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So I did some more testing this morning by removing all my AD, which was 114%. I was clearing GR 110 with 7 plus minutes to spare as an average. After removing AD, my average clear of GR 110 dropped to 4 plus minutes to spare. I lost an average of 3 minutes on my clear time.
Based on this, I think it’s safe to say that AD does proc when you hard cast Rend.
This will give 2H even faster clears on trash.
I’d be pretty careful about assuming how fast Stricken stacks with 1H vs 2H weapons when using WW, especially when auto-applied Rends are thrown into the mix. A while back I did a test using WW to stack Stricken while playing a Leapquake build, (so, using the 2H Blade of the Tribes), and Stricken was stacking way, way faster than it was “supposed” to.
Here’s the post on the old forum where I detailed that: Diablo 3 Forums
In short, you may want to actually run a test with DW 1H vs 2H to see what the stacking rate is. Results may be surprising.
Thanks I will be running CC/BK2. Only really bad thing is my weapons are perfect IAS/area so I need to know what to look for. I assume cooldown will be priority in any CC build. What would we what our second stat to be?
Rage I factored in the fpa (frames per animation) of 2H vs. 1H. In my example 24fpa for 2H and 12fpa for 1H. That is 5tps for 1H and 2.5 tps for 2H.
Current understanding is that Stricken has a coolodwn which is 0.9 * ability_tick_rate (including multiplicative aps buffs like HotA bracers or BK swords).
Stricken only stacks when using an ability with a proc coefficient.
What I am currently not sure about is the following:
You hit an enemy with WW and get a Stricken stack. After that you hit the enemy with any other ability that has a proc coefficient (Bloodshed, Slaughter, Dust Devil, Rend, Charge etc.) but the Stricken cooldown from your WW is not done yet. Can you get another stack from a different ability? Yes or No?!
Does every ability has its own Stricken cooldown and can stack Stricken individually?!
My guess would be yes. Because think of it this way. If you hit an enemy with Rend and proc Stricken the cooldown will be way different than when you hit an enemy with WW while wearing BK swords for example since Rend will factor in your character sheet aps and has no hidden aps buffs.
You would get gaps in your Stricken stacking since your abilities vary so much in tick rate.
Stricken stacks your damage exponentially. Understanding Stricken stacking thus is a pretty big deal.
p.s. When I say “hit with Rend” I mean the acutal manual casting of Rend. Neither the Rend dot (at least that is my understanding) nor the auto casted Rend from Ambo will stack Stricken.