Rend mechanics 2.6.7

Barbarian
62

I cast Rend manually in every Physical Rotation from CoE on Elites, Riftguardians and Packs.
You can see the Damage.

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63

I’d been thinking about this too.

While Ambo-Rends don’t proc AD, self-casts do. And since the effect of Wastes (4) lasts for 3 seconds after you stop WW, it seems to me the best option would be to start self-casting Rend as you reach the proper CoE element, continue for 3 seconds, then resume WWing.

As we all know, in high density situations, with a good pile of AD on your gear, AD procs can represent up to 90% of your total damage, for instance in Leapquake or in the DD’s based WW we have played till now.

The problem this self-cast-rend situation raises is that you’d once again want to have as much AD as possible on your gear. If purely using Ambo-Rend, you’d forego AD in favor of other rolls, and if you have 0 AD, you won’t have the awful lag problems that everybody but Jako experiences with WW/DD.

So we’d be back to the old lag situation, since you’d want as much density as possible for those Rend AD procs, and of course once you have the AD, there’s no way to stop it from being calculated on every DD hit.

Emsen, can you submit video of your gameplay? A bit of analysis of your self-cast-Rend deployment might help us to determine how different instances of Rend overwrite one another.

1 Like
64

That is the part I am interested in the most. A character with no area damage in paragon no area damage on gear. No Bloodshed.
Just IK4/Waste6 with Into The Fray and Blood Funnel with Weapon Master and maybe Superstition. Would be really interesting to see how much of the damage is actually from Rend in comparsion to WW with AD.

Rend is good. But imo WW with AD was and is insane in the right setting.

If would be interesting to compare a Rend only build without AD against a WW/AD build from last season.

@Rage
Do you know how Rend instances are applied? It can easily be the case that your self cast Rend is overwritten in no time by the auto casted Rend from WW since only 2 instances can be in place.

Something else should be taken into consideration aswell. If Rend only ticks 1 time every 0.2 seconds I think you do not want to attack faster than 5 tps / 12fpa!

With that amount of attack speed you would apply a new Rend buff faster than it can tick. I am not sure how that would affect the damage but it might be bad.

edit
Seems like sVr tested this already here:

Maybe he is seeing numbers because Rend can stack to 2 instances?!

65

Hey Zork,

I don’t know exactly how the different Rend instances stack, I don’t think anybody does. If you see svr’s post near the beginning of this thread that was one of the things he was unable to determine.

I will say that I don’t think that with more attack speed you’d be overwriting each rend instance before it dealt damage… if that were happening, I think somebody would have reported it by now, and it would be pretty obvious that you were suddenly doing doing zero damage… oh, svr tested this: see post 40 in this thread.

Edit: oh and see JF’s post where he says that Rend tickrate scales with AS so that you don’t get that zero-damage-rend-overwrite problem.

Edit edit: also, regarding ‘how much damage is actually from Rend’: more or less all of it, since people are dropping Skull Grasp and clearing quite high.

66

I didn’t have Lamentation equipped in that test. Rend was capped at 1 and I was at 9 FPA. I expected “no damage Rends”, as stated. However, that’s not what happened.

67

Allegedly. As of now this is not a confirmed mechanic unless someone publishes a deterministic test scenario that is reproducible.

The only thing we know right now is that one of those two statements must be true:

  • Ambo’s Rend instances are not overwritable (which is not the case for selfcast)

    OR

  • Ambo’s Rend instances scale with IAS (which is not the case for selfcast)

Either way, it behaves inversely to selfcast Rend.

68

Are you saying that an instance of Ambo-rend can’t be overwritten by an instance of self-cast Rend?

If what you are saying is that Ambo-rend can’t be reapplied in such a way that it overwrites the previous instance before it deals damage, do you think it is possible that Ambo’s, rather than reapplying a new instance, is instead, on every WW hit, refreshing the rend duration to 1 second?

69

Updated my previous statement; I guess the “XOR” was misleading.

Nope, that’s not what I am saying. I haven’t tested that nor have I seen anyone else test/confirm that.

I’d say that would be a possibility without Lamentation, but not with it. Technically it’s another possibility, how the game could behave. The only real “duration refreshing instance” that I can think of is Raging Twister from back in the days - that was insanely easy to test though.

70

From my admittedly imprecise testing, I don’t think Ambo-Rends can be refreshed by additional WW hits. Rather, I think it stacks two Rends (with Lamentation) that are then detonated simultaneously.

I still don’t know whether hard-cast Rends overwrite Ambo-Rends, and I don’t quite understand the relationship between Rend and Stricken. If Rends are compressed into a 1-second detonation, my gut tells me they don’t stack Stricken as would Rend ticks over 15 seconds. In this scenario, two stacked Rends from Ambo+Lamentation = 2 Stricken stacks (not counting what WW is also applying).

Thoughts?

71

The best way to see if self-cast can EITHER stack with Ambo or overwrite Ambo would be to look at ad procs, right?

I.e. ww for a few seconds, then quickly self cast Rend.

If you see any AD procs, then self-cast can exist alongside ambo-cast, or it replaces it.

72

Based on the way Stricken’s ICD is supposed to work, I would think that only WW is stacking Stricken in most cases.

I.e. you hit with WW, the ICD is triggered, and then nothing adds another stack until that duration has elapsed.

That said, my WW/Leapquake tests produced some truly screwy results, so who the hell knows…

73

Ambos Rend cannot proc Stricken. It has a proc coefficient of 0. Stuff like WW, Dust Devils, self cast Rend and Slaughter can proc Stricken. They all have a proc coefficient.
The only thing I never understood about Stricken is if multiple procs happening at the same time can give multiple stacks. My guess would be yes. Each ability proc has its own attack based cooldown of course.

74

Admittedly, I’m not much of a tester of mechanics, but can we agree that manual rends are adding damage? I am definitely seeing a significant increase in damage while just playing around in GRs when I manual rend.

I read through all of this discussion but I haven’t seen a definitive answer to what’s going on. It would be great to nail down what the mechanics are so we can best use manual rends. I saw some people saying that they just rend during CoE cycle of the element they are using, but is that the best use? Should we be using manual rend more often? It’s just really difficult to understand what’s happening here with the manual rends.

If it has been determined and I missed it in this discussion, I apologize. If it has been figured out can someone reply with a recap that I can easily understand :slight_smile:

75

So we all know that my game mechanics are much lacking, having said that, he is a question:

Given what we know so far, we don’t want to spam hard castings of Rend (if we could), but we want to wait a 1 second between casts?

76

I noticed that IAS and AD are the least of concerns.
Does this mean we only stack up on CC, CHD, CDR?

77

http ://bbs.d.163.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=173786843&extra=page%3D5

(please delete the “space” after “http”)

From the link shared by JustinFan previously. Yuyewutong shared his test results about ambo, rend, lamentation, etc on a Chinese D3 forum. His tests are recorded and explained by text and screen caps. One of his tests was to test the effect of attack speed on rend damage when using ambo and lamentation.

His screen caps show that he sets his IAS at 1.3 and records a damage of 2,028,962. This number appears every 60 frames.

Then he increases his IAS to 1.78 with all strength, CHC and CHD unchanged. This displayed damage number becomes 1,352,641 but appears every 40 frames.

(1,352,641 / 40) *60 = 2,028,961.5

The total damage done at 2 different IAS are the same.

Then he further tests on 80 frames and 100 frames damage displaying intervals. The results are the same. With higher attack speed, damage numbers are displayed more frequently but with smaller value. The total damage done is the same.

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78

Excellent stuff, Tom. I have to assume that Rend simply takes attack speed into account when it calculates the damage/frames. If this is all correct, attack speed is worthless in the build. This means that using a 2H weapon, such as Furnace, might be very viable.

AD’s usefuleness is limited to hard-cast Rends, but it’s unclear whether those overwrite Ambo-Rends, or even if they’re worth casting at all.

79

[quote=“Free-1746, post:78, topic:4384”]
using a 2H weapon
[/quote]…

…off-topic tangent: I was really hoping they’d incorporate Skorn into a new Rend build somehow, for purposes of nostalgia. I remember the good old D3V days of “rend and run” with Skorn.

3 Likes
80

Sry cant show you a Video until Thursday 7pm CET. But you definitely see the increased damage in the physical phase!

Can test it with Area Damage on Paragon Points and on max AD from Gear.

81

I’ve been testing this 2H IK 4pc/ Wastes 6pc, AD 114%, no CDR (outside of FoT), Rend Lacerate:

https://www.d3planner.com/727490174

I’m averaging 7 minute clears at GR 110 . I also tested Lacerate vs Bloodbath with the same gear and was averaging roughly the same clear times using the same gear.

Edit: Forgot to mention that my WotB uptime is 100%, because I’m hard casting Rend during battles, which why I don’t have CDR% on my gear.

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