Quin and Alkaizer - POE vs Diablo?

Ok you admitted at least that your source is kinda very “different” from all the other sources i found on the first 2 google pages on the internet. I appreciate it! That shows me that you dont deny facts allthough it seems that you dont like to think about other points of views. Nevertheless It is a base i can work with :wink: So i will use some time to explain my arguments in more than 30 words because it is
nearly impossible to make a point clear in few words. This is especially the case when you have to explain game philsophie.

This is a question of game Philosphie/Game Design. I like game Design which is more like d2/poe much more. To my mind it is far superior to the current game design choices in d3 in the Item Department. I mean the Game Design choices in d3 are in some areas interesting for me ( if they wasnt i wouldnt have played d3 so much) but in the area of itemisation the development of d3 is from my perspective just horrible. I can explain you why.

1. Variation of Items and rarity

The core of every ARPG in the world so far is to play the game to Progress and to make a character stronger. It should feels fresh and you should feel the Progress of your character.

Most games use for that purpose items. And in nearly every game the most fun aspect is to farm for fresh and new items.
In d3 the game makes the items raining. I mean 150 per hour of the strongst class of items (I dont speak at this point about quality like ancient or primal i speak of legendary/sets basicly)? I understand your point. I see that Item rain is basicly not that bad! The Problem is that you have the absolutly same Item in 3 different qualities.

I mean in season the game barely throws a full set at you! From lv 0 till full set you need less than 15 hours without even rushing the game. I mean what is the purpose of fresh and new gameplay when the game is literly throwing the items at you that are making the game fresh and different. in d2 you farmed ~30-40 legendarys with a highend mf sorc too. The difference was that there wasnt the same item in 3 different qualities. every quality of items had its own drop rates ( and in every Quality there were more or less usefull items. For example SOJ was normal the lowest quality of items but it was by far the best item for most caster builds ) and even in the same qualities some items were more or less likely to drop. The items of very rare quality werent extremly stronger than the items that were more common.

I can give you an example. You wont understand it exactly if you hadnt played d2 but as you said before that you had played it for 10 years, you will understand it. There was a javelin build for amazon with the item titans revenge. It was lightning based and had a unique play style. There was an Item for the bow typ of amazone of same rarity, it was called “the buriza”. A titans revenge build was ~ 30-40% stronger than the buriza build in damage( single target). The buriza build had better aoe damage and was safer and easier to play. And there was the unique item the windfore. it was 1000 times more rare than titans revenge ( i guess havent exact figures). I found 1 in around 3 years. my point is, it made the bow ama build like 40% stronger than the titans build, even in single target damage. For me because i was a min max guy it enabled a new build and new gameplay and I felt great. The bow build had basicly better aoe and more range, the Ama become because of the windfore something what you could consider “op”. Even though, there wasnt a demand for nerfs because this build wasnt better in every situation (nerfing was uncommon too). For example: The WF-Bow Build was useless against physic immune enemies. And the other point was that the item was so rare when i found it in first 2 Weeks of the exp , it wasnt duped at all i guess. I got extremly offers for it like 300 dollar but i didnt wanted to sell it. i had the feeling to have achieved something unique and was joyfull for around 2 weeks.

Such an itemisation is to my mind a good and very entertaining Itemisation. You dont farm for basicly only stat increase of your “normal gear” what can be fun at some degree but additionally for that extremly rare and cool item that can change your gameplay completly!

2. Progression and Gameplay

In world of warcraft the itemisation-system with that “+ 10% stats”, where you got your items pretty easy and run threw the item loop on your hamsterwheel from one tier of raiding to an other, worked only so well because you got fresh encounters. At some degree sets had sometimes cool set bonuses that changed the gameplay a bit but that isnt the point.

You wasnt farming the items because of the aspect of item farming but to explore new areas of the game and new lore aspects. Another aspect was to compete with other raiders on the server/in the world.

Such a “Gatekeeper” concept of gear for d3 is to my mind boring and is especially boring for d2 fans like me because we know the feeling of fresh and new Items and finding super Rare items. It is not fun achieving something when the game is basicly throwing everything at you. If you could going from highschool to bachelor to master to doctorate in 10 days, achieving P.D. wouldnt feel like a achievment at all. When everyone basicly gets everything without any effort at all it stops beeing an achievment. d3 was way to casual and boring in that department to my mind.

To be sucessfull as wow with that “wow-like” gear concept, d3 had to release complete new gameplay elemants and areas ~3 times a year to keep the game fresh ( like poe did). Blizzard didnt. So d3 become an Arpg without interesting item Progression and Itemcentric-Gameplay. To my mind the Gameplay and Progression via Items was plain and boring.

offtopic personal rant

Only positive aspect for me was/is that because of that super easy equiping of a character i can compete with other people/ teams for high gr rifts. but even under this aspect i am quite salty. I was Rank ~80-300 in some seasons and it was basicly impossible to be as a legit player in the top 50 without maphack aka turbo-hud and botting for paragon and gear. i even saw streamers and youtubers where the guy was saying “i am 100% legit”. But they were porting like magicans into an area where there was like a ~30% chance of an elite standing. Furthermore the always found the perfect path on the maps, where finding the path could be tricky. If this only happened ones, ok the person was lucky, if this happens 15 times in a rift than its :joy: :rofl: :joy: especailly in a “4 hour push-stream”

3. Item Balance
Now i will show you some numbers. Pls dont nail me on them i dont found them out after 2 days of excel researches. So if some one have exact numbers you are welcome to share them. but i am pretty sure the numbers are ~ +30%-30% correct because i played both games a lot and because of that i can provide an appropriate guess.

In d2 the difference between a pretty weak character under the aspect of single target damage and a very strong character was like ( Depending on class and build because the classes even scaled differently with gear, for example barb had the strongest scaling with weapons because he used x2 2-hand weapons )
around 500-700% in offense and something like 200% in defense. so the differnce of a strong and a weak character was basicly by the factor of ~7 times stronger. you felt in a 8 man hell run basicly the same as if you was doing hell with a quite fresh bad equipt hell character solo. in the defense department you could survive something like instead of “2 mistakes” “4 mistakes” for some minions. for other minions you was onehit even in highend gear ( ww into iron maiden → haha ).

in d3 the difference is much bigger. When you have farmed appropriate, have appropriate lv gem and have like 4k paragon (highend in season). and compare it with a weak para 800 char ( non ancient all slots, i know its impossible with para 800 :joy:, gems lv 100) the differnce is like ~20 gr solo at least.
20 Gr Solo is 1,17´20 which is is like 2300% difference. And i am not even taking the set bonuses where you get like 40000% more damage and items which increase your skill damage by 800% into account. In yellow gear you farm i guess 80 gr lower, what is → 28.501.580,24 % less damage.

That is the reason why the itemesation is poor in d3. You have to find the items. No one want to do 28 million times less damage!! While a highend char can kill a boss in 10 seconds the 80 gr lower yellow guy would need for the same boss only 88,78 years!! Seems like a good itemisation for me

That is not how good game design works. people should play in the difficulty they want and like without sever disadvantage. when someone want to have an interesting rift which is ~3-4 gr under his max gr, he needs like 10-13 minutes for it. That is over 3 times slower than 8 gr lower!! A 8 gr lower than top gr is just plain and boring. That is not a good game design. If you force someone to “chose” doing basicly the same content it is bad game design period. It would be different if you chose another build which plays completly different. This feels at least entertaining. In a gear and paragon farming environment, playing the same build a lot “less effective” is not a choice, it is a mistake if your goal is achiving effective gameplay.

So someone who dont like easy gameplay and want be effective at the same time cant have that? It is possible in a lot of games why this shouldnt be possible in d3? because to your mind d3 is perfect in this department as it is ?

P.S. i Underestimated the wall of text by a lot :rofl: :rofl:

Most of the things you like for D2 is what I hate about D2.

Different game is different. D3 itemization is amazing because it offers more than simply adding flat damage to your character. Not the game fault if the players chose to play the game by gimping himself or doing something that is not intended by the game design.

It is possible in D3. You want easy gameplay, you pick lower GR. You want not so easy but still doable and effective, you pick mid range GR (for e.g. GR110) and if you want a challenge where every situation requires you to focus and win, you play high GR.

I can’t say the same for D2 where I stuck at Hell Mode where there is nothing can push my character to the limit.

Never played in a party in D3.

I am fine with it. It would be more fun when you could actually explain why, but a solid opinion.

Fair, a solid opinion. Only one point of your argumentation is strange I could even say that you agreed with me but you are writing it as if you dont agree :grinning:
"D3 itemization is amazing because it offers more than simply adding flat damage to your character"

It is what i am writing all the time you can have your items that dont just add flat damage :rofl: Just cut every item that is flat “increase skill XX by 100000%” to increase skill xx by 30%-50%.
Here we go you agree with me that flat damage increase by 100000% is bad and boring! Why you are writing as if you dont agree with me :wink:

I dont know if we have here a comunication problem or you are just trolling me.
I give you a real example how it is in this patch for me in d3 → fact.

When my max gr is 118 without fishing like mad. it is like 10-13 minutes
(I didnt tryed to push with hard fishing. i guess it is something like 125-130 at least with archon vyr).
I can do Gr 110 in 3-5 minutes. 110 is much more effective than Gr118 but it is super easy and boring. 118 is not effective at all but it is much more fun for me.

When d3 would be a perfectly designed game i wouldnt be punished for playing 118 what is much more interesting for me. I can actually die in 118 when i play not good. In 110 it is faceroll boring i have to have 2 seconds brain lag to die here.
For me it is wrong to play GR 118 if i want exp and gear ( i can do 2-3 runs 110 in the same time). You understand that? When d3 would be balanced good, i should get at least the same exp and gear doing gr 118 in 10-13 minutes as doing 110 in 3-5 minutes. You got it ? i cant have both because this game is balanced bad with 5% more exp, 5% more damage and 17% more life of minions per Gr.

I know that you are telling me that i can choose one of 3 ( super easy, interesting and “endgame”). I want interesting and effective at the same time. Blizzard messed up there. only easy is super effective. pushing to the limits cant be effective. but what you considered “medium” shouldnt be giving me ~half loot and 60% less exp. I dont want get for 4 hours playing the reward of 2 hours playing if i dont want boring Gr. You got it ? If you still dont understand me i consider you are trolling.

In that point i agree with you d2 had no endgame to push your char to the limit but item farming was in d2 as i already wrote 1000% more fun. A modern d2 would have both Endgame and an itemisation that doesnt suck ( for me at least, but you seems to agree with your “number” argument). thats my point.

Because I don’t see the 10,000% is a problem. In the end, it is just a number as long as your character with 100 000 000 DPS kill as fast as your character did with 100 DPS in the other game.

If you think GR110 is easy but boring and GR118 is not rewarding but fun, but at the same time you still want to retain the feeling of interesting and effective, maybe you could play GR114 or GR115 for the sweet spot. In fact, that is what I had been doing.

So, if you cant say any positive about this incredible high numbers, you can at least agree with what i wrote at least 3 times?

There are a lot of negative aspects of the itemisation system of d3.
The current d3 itemisation make it mandatory to find the items because without them the game is “unplayable”.
No one want to be 28 million times weaker than an other char. This is beyond unfun by million times. With items that are mandatory to find there is nearly no item hunt at all. I cant speak for all but i can give you an educated guess that millions of people care about loot hunt beeing fun. In d3 there is no real loot hunt. Every item in the base version is obtainable in 1 day. That is killing the loot hunt aspect nearly completly. It is not so much fun finding the same item with 30% more stats. The most fun you can have in loot hunt is to find a new super rare item you never dreamed of having, which enables a completly new way of playing the game. That is what is considered fun by most of the people. Not
“WOW i have now instead of 27500 int 27607 int! Thats amaziiiiingggg!”

Second, If you make a good Itemisation in which items dont skyrocket your damage and defense out of the universe, you dont have to find them to enjoy the game. If this is the case you can make some “special items”
very rare because not finding them dont break the game. If not finding items is not that bad, it makes it possible to play instead of 3-5 builds for example 10-15 builds.

Build diversity is for a lot of people fun too. d3 itemisation is killing build diversity. This 100000% system has many disadvantages and no advantage at all. Thats my point. Thats why i try to explain you why i wish that the old itemisation of d2/poe in d4 appear. For d3 it is already too late, unfortunatly.

If you dont agree, of what ever reason, without having any reasons to disagree I accept this. I discussed with a lot of stuborn people. At some point it is just not fun at all.

You are correct at some degree.

The Problem is, that even 114 or 115 is not a perfect solution for me. It is like not super ineffective and not super boring. I have to sacrifice a little bit of fun and a little of effectiveness. As i Wrote already this is the result of 5/5/17. Of course you lose effectivness when you reach damage breakpoints because the scalling is so different and you nearly get no additional loot at all. Such a problem is obvious a game design Problem. It could be fixed. In a lot of games you dont have to play on “easy” to be effective. This is a flaw in game design.

D3 game design is perfect because you can choose to easy and effective or push your character to the limit.

Because it is just a number in the end. There is no advantage and disadvantage or positive and negative that will impact the game. You can add more zero or reduce the zero to three digit in D3 and the game will still be played the same way.

D3 players don’t care about that either. They only care that their well-equipped character now can use the “primary” attack for lesser costs or free that will pierce thru multiple enemies and explode compare to the time when their character can only use the “primary” attack for 2 times and it only hit single target.

Same here and it is waste of time.

Sir, work on your reading comprehension. Have a wonderfull day.

edit
Thanks for the advice. If you could correct every of my posts i can learn something .I would appreciate that.
You on the other hand would have written :

“My spelling is perfect for a non native speaker and i got marks that were good enough to even study law in english, everything is fine. In addition i try to write fast and dont care as much whether spelling is correct or not”

Thats basicly the difference between us. It seems that this attitude is part of your personality. So have a nice day sir.

You should work on your spelling before you lecture on others.