I wonder what the threads would be like if the developers said – we wanted HoTA to be the competitive build.
We don’t know if the developers wanted HoTA, Slam or WW to be the top barb build.
In my opinion the best way to handle that lack of transparency is if one of the barbs with all the stats would have said:
Here are the numbers for all 3 builds and what they should be compared to what you have in PTR in order to have enough damage and enough damage mitigation. We don’t know which one you meant to be the competitive build so just pick one. What’s the use of buffing 3 builds and not making at least one of them competitive?
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HoTA used to be the best build. Way, way, Way back. When you would wear items because you wanted the stat on them. There were monk Set pants with Attack Speed that barbs would wear.
But we have done this, man. If you go through barb’s forum you will see plenty of posts suggesting buffs and using real and explained numbers to reach the plateau where wiz are now. If balance is to be concerned, all revolves in a single equation: 17% more damage per GR tier + enough toughness to do it. If a class lack in the damage department, as barb, the set/skill is underpowered, and it is simple as that.
That’s why I have 0 patience with people who say otherwise. You can always look at the leaderboards. You have a 10 GR gap of average clears between classes. Is it too difficult to do the math and buff these sets/skills x*17%?
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I was looking through all the PTR posts about Slam to see how far Slam was off from the top builds. That’s the build I’ll end up playing next season because I haven’t played that build before.
Maybe I did the search wrong, but all the responses were a general – it needs a bigger buff.
Everyone bet the farm on WW with the assumption that WW was what the devs intended to be the top build. I just did a search PTR. I still can’t find a post that says, the buffs on the Slam items are off and here’s where the numbers need to be.
All the feedback is - Slam needs more of a buff.
The situation where we are, the wizs, is so good that our best build is a toxic unintended one (bazooka). And the second one is being nerfed (-40%+dmg).
Wizard’s history is poisoned bread for today, hungry for tomorrow.
I think Slam will be 133-135 material, tops. Not too remarkable
In case you didn’t know:
One definition of bias is leaning to one side or the other of an idea. nothing more than that.
Like this:
bias 1) I loved the D4 demo at Blizzcon, I can’t wait!
bias 2) What a stupid game D4 will be, hate it!
or like this:
Barb Bias 1) Barb should be able to clear 140 solo with the other hero classes, bring back the PTR Buff please!
Barb Bias 2) I am calling for the Barb PTR nerf. They shouldn’t be able to clear 140 solo.
that is all it is.
There is nothing wrong with bias if you support different personalities in the world.
Is that your way of saying last week?
or
Several years ago?
Okay, I’m going to throw this ball to you Bagboy, keep going way, way Way, back!
You are basically saying the Devs are morons. The numbers were clear. Huge buff to WW, small buff to Hota/Slam.
Here are two propositions for you:
- The Devs are morons and have no clue how to balance builds
- The Devs intended WW to be the build they were going to buff the most for solo push.
I think the assumption that WW was intended to be the solo push build would be the correct answer. If they intended on one of hota or slam to be the top solo build then they were grossly under buffing those builds and you would have to question their competence.
Edit: one other option, which would be shocking if true, is that the Devs have no intentions of allowing barb to be the top DPS or near the top DPS. That, theoretically, would explain the nerf to WW and the under buffing of hota/slam. I can’t imagine this to be true. But given where barbs will end up after the patch this theory can not be out right dismissed.
We’ve only had one PTR cycle where we actually had some transparency and really good feedback. That was the balance patch where I think you quoted Don Vu. All other PTRs the players have given tons of feedback and got nothing in return from the Devs. They then apply nerfs/buffs that don’t always work out.
I hope going forward with D4 they learn some lessons about PTRs. There needs to be a back and forth, there needs to be transparency, and wide sweeping changes need to be tested on the PTR before they go live. It’s my opinion that they continuously mishandle the PTRs. We could get a lot done if the Devs actually worked with the player base with the goals they have in mind.
The big fallacy with D3 is that they have taken the stance: You will play the game how we tell you to play it and we (the devs) will tell you what is fun.
The guy is throwing a bait to get our estimations. Then their trolls can attack for nerf intentions accordingly.
Do not say any estimations guys. He could have played it in PTR and see for himself.
FYI: Here is the updated links to past Fresh Meet and Greet.
Barb community tradition.
You know what I would enjoy? To add faces to your names. A barb post so we could show a picture of ours. I bet you are fat, though. Fat people have good sense of humour
Lol I am not fat. I was actually average but now sitting too much reading students papers etc etc and stopped running for a while. So gained a few kg, but not fat yet. I would not put my face as that would relate my imaginary Prokahn to real me and I dont want to be real me on internet at least. It is our only sanctuary from the invented reality.
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My theory is the same reason they never wanted ww barb to be popular and thats why it took so long to even get this far. It lags the servers. Even though its better with the time cut of rend,I noticed when i used the rend skill in a large pack it still lagged the game to everyone dying from lag.
I think that the estimations are informative as well as looking down the leaderboard. If the true maximal power of the ww/rend @ 200% rend damage on lamentation is truly 140 then removing the rend damage bonus altogether makes no sense. If the power is GR 145, then reducing the rend damage to 100% can be rationalized in light of the nerfs to wizards and necromancers. The GR clears of the top 25 in non-season vs. the PTR also inform. Unfortunately, I did not record the times of these clears so I can not do your GR efficiency calculation. I simply can do frequency distributions/bar graphs, but my excel files are on my other computer so that will have to wait.
One interesting side note:
My recollection is that one of the developers indicated to you or someone else that your GR efficiency calculation was similar to how they assess things or at least their method led to a similar conclusion. Since the developers had the entire PTR leaderboard with GR clears, clear times, paragon levels, I can not help but to wonder if they saw something in their data analysis that warranted their decision.
Clearly, you weren’t around in vanilla kid.
I’m starting to doubt that argument was ever about that 10k plvl barbarian clear. Apart from WW, what sorta options Barbarians have anyway? Charging at a wall or zDPS. That’s it. Yet they take one example as a resemblence of entire player base?
There must be another reason for them to nerf Barbarians like that. I’m thinking of two possibilities but still doesn’t make much sense.
One; they didn’t like the monotonous gameflow of WW barbarians clearing that high. I mean, okay, it became a one click wonder but still you have to keep your buffs up to survive. New hybrid mindset of WotW-CC Set didn’t give you much survival, nor burst damage like CoE. Even with all that power to push and buff cycling, it’s squishy.
Chantodo-Vyr’s was as simple as current WW-Rend build and it stood for seasons before nerf. What’s the haste?
Two; they under-estimated the interest on Barbarians and afraid that it would choke servers once it go live. Then why nerf Rend and not the Dust Devils or Bloodshed? If tickrate and area damage messes the servers that bad why insisting on keeping them? Band aid fix 'till next season?
As I get it, there are “many” 6-7k plvl Wizard players out there who are itching to try Barbarians and that’s a problem?
I hope that the intention Is not to keep zBarb slave for META.
I’ve never zBarbed and never will.
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I commend the WD and DH players that pushed the envelope here.
More anecdotal evidence to why the Barb nerf was unwarranted!
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they should reworked rend. Make it like wizard familliar but it applies to every monster you hit with your weapons.