I have to give props to the designers on this one, because their Ambo’s design for Rend fixes several issues at once;
- One second rend resolves quickly and less stress on the server
- Rend damage is less fishy than WW since it’s not reliant on density, # of targets, and Pain enchancer / Echoing Fury fodder
- It fixes the WW Barb’s problem of single target since it provides a flat base damage rate against lone elites and RG
- It opens up gearing options
They did a good job with Ambo’s.
However, I’m seeing people bothered by this who wish that more of the “damage” gets shifted to Dust Devils. Why? It’s the same build. Does it matter if the actual numbers are from Rend or DD’s? Nope. What matters is the result. You’re still spinning to deal damage either way.
You will regret asking to shift damage back to Dust Devils. Why? Because:
- Dust Devils rely on Pain Enchancer / EF kills and great density, which is the fishing aspect people hate
- Pain Enchancer / EF with Dust Devils locks up game instances which affects your damage and rift
- Dust Devils are garbage against lone elites and bosses
Think about it. And careful what you ask for in PTR.
If they kill Ambo’s / Rend, you’ll be back to fishing 100’s of keys for insane maps just to do what other classes can do on any map whatsoever, and you’ll be doing it slower.
28 Likes
You make a solid point that the net result of the changes is very positive. I don’t really agree with your reasoning, though. First, since the last patch I have been running with trapped rather than PE, and I’m very happy with that. Second, and more importantly, the end result we are looking at here is a staggered boost to damage. Shorter kill time in smaller groups=less chance for lag. No one’s ever been able to explain why we couldn’t do the same thing by simply boosting ww damage.
2 Likes
You were running with Trapped instead of Pain Enchancer because cubed Echoing Fury was taking care of your Attack Speed.
Moving forward you’ll be limited in cube options.
Forcing WW into having to use Pain Enchancer to use Dust Devils is a mistake.
In fact, forcing any build into density related mechanics is always a nerf. Because it means the build will lack the direct damage to clear small density and bosses.
2 Likes
I absolutely agree with everything written here. I’m hopeful they keep the change especially with regards to removing the need for extreme fishing. It stops being fun after awhile trying to hit the map lottery and then once you do finally win it the actual playing of the map is not even that enjoyable given the constant lag or need for pausing the game.
The other key point is #4, aside from some minor variation or the recent introduction of the CC set WW has been locked in gear-wise for what feels like an eternity. Look at all of the fun the folks messing around with the Pro-Slam build are having min/maxing and tweaking gear, I’m actually looking forward to trying to hop on the PTR this weekend and trying different gear combinations out.
I’m hoping that the short period the PTR is even open hopefully means these changes are locked in for at least a season, if something is ridiculously out of whack they can always change it going into S20.
6 Likes
Every point is so correct…
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I was still running trapped last night on the PTR with Ambo’s in cube with no problems. Cleared 120 with 2k paragon on first try; missed my one attempt at 122 by less than a minute on a bad gr.
Again, though, why the insistence that upping ww damage itself to kill faster is worse than adding damage from Rend? I honestly don’t see why it matters where the damage comes from.
Oh I thought you meant on the live patch.
The problem with PE I am describing is that PE, high density, and/or EF are required on the live server for Dust Devils to deal damage.
I agree. But imagine this for a second–take all the damage boost we got from Rend and pop that into ww. Wouldn’t that solve our problem, too?
No, it’s just move the same issues up 5-10 tiers or whatever.
The problem with Dust Devils is their mechanics and reliance on IAS / Area Damage / Density.
You’d still have to fish maps, bosses, and pylons with great density you’ll just be doing it several tiers higher and eventually you’ll hit lag lockups too.
By shifting most of the damage onto Rend you alleviate all of the problems including boss fight and you now have many gearing options, you aren’t tied to EF / Bul Kathos and can even play with 2H if you want.
Dust Devils are cool in theory but for the way servers and the game works they are an inferior way to deal damage. 
That’s a fair point. I’m not sure sure we completely escape that with rend, though. I was starting to lag on the PTR in the 120’s. That could be because I was still running bloodshed. I’ll have to try it with another rune and see what happens.
Eh.
No one wants the damage nerfed.
But saying this is the only way to go is a false dilemma. Consider the fact that we now have a channeling spender–the main focus of an entire set–that went from dealing all our damage to almost none. Something is very wrong with this picture.
What I’m considering is to suggest loading some of that damage back into Whirlwind–not all, and not even most. Some.
If, for example, WW is able to acquire an additional 300-500% multiplier, and if we lose the auto-Rend–not, mind you, the detonation, no one wants the detonation to go away–all we do is gain more damage from WW.
If the detonation goes from 1 second to 3, it is not going to be a 10 tier nerf to the build if we also gain 300-500% on WW vs Rended enemies.
These are not our only options; I bring them up because I mentioned them earlier, but the point is that there are are options that do not involve nerfing our damage potential. I’m happy to discuss this at length, but let’s please not make overly simplistic arguments. I get the anxiety that is present–we FINALLY deal meaningful damage, and no one wants that to go away–me more than most of you. But I don’t think the way things are is necessarily the best possible way.
4 Likes
The flat damage delivered via rend is guaranteed on hit while Dust Devils rely on AD and Attack speed density to deliver good damage per second.
I never said these are the only two options, so I’m not presenting a false dilemma at all.
I’m explaining why Rend is such a superior source of damage compared to Dust Devils.
So even if you kept damage exactly the same, by shifting more damage back to Dust Devils you nerf its effective damage on the majority of rifts in this game.
Get it? Dust Devils are a fishy and rng - reliant damage delivery method. Always have been. See my points above.
That is why WW has historically been the fishiest thing in the game. And is garbage on bosses.
Dust Devils are too mechanically sensitive as a source of damage.
12 Likes
The simple compromise is this:
Increase Skull Grasp damage for WW.
Keep Ambo’s as is, but add the Rend xxxx% damage and remove it from Waste 6pc.
And everyone wins.
Then you create a monster LoN or IK rend build.
I think manual rend would only work if rend did even more damage but had a long cool down. Then it could be our version of a tactical nuke. Reapplying rend manually very 3 seconds would be very choppy. If they keep the 1 second duration, manual rend would make the build effectively unplayable, I would think.
I just don’t want there to division amongst us. Then let’s tweak what I’ve proposed so that we don’t create a monster.
We could move the Rend build to IK. This way we don’t destroy the purity of Waste’s WW
Well. Yeah. No division at all. But I believe what We currently should do is to provide feedback to help them tweak the buff number or they should fix certain bugs.
The balance between WWs and rend can come next season.
1 Like
The issue isn’t bugs.
The issue is exactly as Ulmaguest has expressed.
Yes. Just let us play a season with this buff number. No barb build are as op as pre nerf chant
Agreed.
Can’t stand the 20 character minimum.