No attention for other classes?

General Discussion
1

This ptr, we see that necro and DH get no changes despite underperforming significantly by the metrics blizzard themselves gave us :frowning: could you at least tweak some numbers?

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2

Wouldn’t be too surprising. Some classes had went through at least three seasons before seeing any significant changes.

3

It is always fun seeing poor blizzard not do well with numbers. It is literally numbers. It is math. It is math a middle schooler could do. I do not get it.

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4

From the blog they JUST posted. With a target of 130, necromancer was 123 and DH was 125. It’s definitely very confusing what’s going on

5

Would not be surprised to see Nev or Matthew comment on this one. Obviously those two classes will get attention at some point, but I agree it’s not exactly the best in terms of optics when you present data clearly showing two classes overall are far worse then every other class, only to immediately release a PTR which addresses zero things about those two classes.

Curious to know if they are struggling to figure out how to address those classes(hence the delay) or if it’s just a scheduling thing.

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6

Things that take the most work to fix take the most time. They gave us 3 new sets this time instead of two. Now they can focus on the harder ones to fix that need the most love.

  1. You know know from the balance blog they are aware of, and acknowledging the performance issue.
  2. You know those get fixed in a later patch.
  3. You don’t have to like the timing, but at least you have clear communication on what is going on. We have been asking for communication above anything else. We got it.
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7

I’m good with it. One more season where the DH class is left to the true DH’s. Look how many players flooded the Barb class this season. I can wait for that.

8

All they really need to do is try. I don’t need huge scale changes. Even if they plan to do reworks on some Necro sets, they could at least throw us some number buffs in the meantime. Trag’oul and rathma are complete garbage. Pestilence is only viable for torment speedfarming. Inarius is… Ok? But the gameplay feels clunky and gimmicky with ledgers disdain forcing you to run singularity mages just to dump your essence, and spamming poison abilities just to build stacks. Just not as coherent as other builds.

9

I dont particularly care whether Blizzard give necro and DH any buffs right now (what is needed is nerfs anyway), but maybe if Blizzard adjusted balance in other ways than through set items, it would be faster. No need for new set item design etc.
if anything, the game would benefit more from a complete skill rebalancing than even more items with 10000% dmg modifiers.

Sets are not really a meaningful rebalancing method anyway.
If a class needs a 100% buff to catch up to the others, and you add a new set that gives them that 100% buff, all the other sets are still left in the dust.
If you buff the skills that sets rely on, you can buff all the sets at once.

Build balance should matter just as much, if not more, than class balance.

10

I’ve noticed you defend Blizz a lot and that’s admirable, but I think some criticism is fair here. They established a norm where they don’t make any substantive balance changes during a season. You’ve got to wait 3 months for the next one. We accepted that. Now, they post a developer insight blog showing that their own internal numbers clearly show DH and Necro are underperforming, and just a few days later, we get the patch notes that show no changes to either class. You’ve been arguing to just wait more… how many more seasons do they leave the game in a state they consider broken? Another 3 months? 6 months? A year? Soon™? “Not even Blizzard Soon™”?

This comes off as a bait and switch. Nevistalis has attempted to explain that either art assets or balance assets weren’t ready. Well, it doesn’t matter which. Blizzard didn’t deliver for fans who play either of those classes.

Those of us who do are left wondering:

  • Why must a new set be the solution? There are 3 already + LON builds.
  • Why couldn’t they just boost the numbers on sets already in the game, like they did with Barb and WD items? Those are far easier changes and require no art assets.
  • Why even tell the players (though we already know it) that they consider those classes to be underperforming when they know they have nothing to deliver to fix it?

Even as a 20+ year fan of Blizzard games, I’m calling this unacceptable. They need to do better.

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11

Criticism is fine. I do so as well. If you check my post history from today you can see my issues with the lack of crafting mat auto pickup, among other things.

I mostly state reality (as I see it), as best I can, and not take sides too much.

Reality - they know DH and Necro are not performing well. They were honest that they know and did not pretend that all was well. That is why they put it in the blog. No rug sweeping.

Reality - it takes time to fix things, and not just art assets.

If it came down to fixing the Necro this time, DH next time, and the last three later, would you go with that?

They were able to update the three that were easiest to approach, and will need to do more of an overhaul on the DH and Necro.

Do people want it faster? Yes. Do they want it rushed and screwed up? No.

I have done hard jobs before…and I appreciate it when someone tries to see the challenges I face. It only seems fair to me that if I want that consideration, that I should have that same consideration for others, especially when I don’t do their job and know all the details.

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12

Wasn’t this forum complaining last year about this game not having a full dev team anymore?

You can only work on so much at a time and not everyone will agree as to what should have priority. Which has already been demonstrated in this thread.

13

I’d respectfully refer you to Barbs who, until this patch with the joyfulness of WW/Rend, were overlooked when it came to damage for literally years. Three months to wait isn’t long compared to that. (And, I have a number of DH’s on my account so I’d have been hyped for some Impale love for example).

14

I’ve said this a few places already, and MissCheetah has largely already summarized those points, but I’ll reiterate it for visibility.

We’re definitely, totally, extremely aware that Demon Hunter and Necromancer need help. And we want to do that right. The class sets for those two classes simply weren’t ready yet, and these ones were. Sometimes, that’s just how the production timelines end up working out, and it’s much easier for us to focus on 2-3 classes at a time rather than trying to spread ourselves thin across all 7.

I do think both classes need more attention than just their class sets; I don’t know how fast that process will be, or when precisely it will happen (nor the specifics of what we’ll be doing just yet). What I do know it’s very much a constant discussion, and we’re always reading and hunting down feedback for a variety of changes, whether they’re for right now or earmarked for the near future.

So what can you do right now? Theorycraft! Throw out ideas of what you’d like to see! Build out your criticisms (preferably constructively), and start a discussion with other like-minded folks! We visit the class forums as well as General (though we tend to post there less as our interference often derails discussions, and we like seeing those thought processes continue organically).

We will get to every class. But it’s going to take time, and we’re probably going to continue to rotate through and circle back when things need adjusting (either up or down). Our main focus right now is adding in all the new class sets and supporting them appropriately, but in the long(er) term, additional balance changes to existing builds are certainly within scope.

Very realistically, though, it’s just not going to happen all at once.

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15

Thank you for your response! I appreciate it.

16

Honestly, with a standard software development cycle, I don’t expect anything to be permanently “fixed.” Patching and rebalancing is an ongoing process. I understand changes take time, but my argument is that this is not a newly realized problem they just figured out last week. They knew at the last PTR at the very least - so that’s at least 3 months of time.

I don’t expect a new set. I expect them to take a look at build-critical items of the most common builds and give them a boost. That’s the easiest solution. The data changes are minimal. The balance effects are contained only to the set they’re used with. No new art assets are required. I strongly believe they could do a change like that very quickly, and it would acknowledge that they understand the problem and are working to address it.

That’s the thing though. This wasn’t the dilemma. They chose to deliver a new set for the barbarian, which is already performing extremely well, and to deliver significant changes to the WD. I’m ok with the latter. The WD was “at parity” but deserving of attention. I’m not ok with providing no solution to a long-standing problem while they’re providing more content for a class which has been getting tons of attention and power. Perhaps the barb set waited waited a season while they worked something for DH or Necro?

Managing expectations a critical skill. If the fans don’t know all the details, then the CMs might benefit from sharing some of those. A simple statement like “we have something in the works for DH and Necro, but it won’t be ready for the next patch. We’re a small team, but we want to make sure it lives up to Blizzard’s high standards.” would have gone a long way. Would you agree?

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17

Certainly I would agree with that. I kind of thought people knew that, but if you want it stated I can see your point. Maybe they will.

18

I’m disappointed necromancer or DH did not make it in this PTR/patch. What I’m concerned about though is that when S21 rolls around summertime-ish does this mean the current necro sets are not getting attention? While I’m sure the new set will be fun I’d really like to enjoy sets like Trag’oul, Rathma and Pestilence more which are in desperate need of help.

In the current patch notes I also noticed that the only supporting legendary items updated are ones that apply to the new sets.
Say for example if/when the new DH set does not involve Elemental Arrow, does this mean that Kridershot/Augustine’s will not be looked at for those of us who want to finally play EE with UH6 set?

I guess with 3 class sets in this patch maybe you guys don’t have time to get around to everything as you said. It’s just that necro and DH do have a lot that needs to be looked at so I’m sure I’m not the only one who hopes it’s not just their new sets only which will be looked at.

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19

Dude. We got 3 sets and a seasonal buff that will make Necro godly. Blizzard has said repeatedly that they are working on new sets for Necro and DH. Do you want it rushed, or do you want it right? You can’t have it both ways especially for a game this old and in maintenance mode. I swear the next dude to post their pie in the sky requests should be slapped.

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20

Can you tell us whether you guys have the plan to put cap on the paragon in the seasonal or improve the seasonal journals because I feel that current seasonal journal is a too easy to complete?

Your answer would save us a lot of time to asking the same things over and over in the future.