There are a few things I have noticed in my time as zDPS that are becoming even more extreme as I push my first 150GR in 3 player on my zDH (timed 149, missed 150 by small margin a couple times).
It started with my zBarb in my group not knowing what gems to upgrade to make our push better (his support gems had their lvl 25 ability active). He correctly mentioned that upgrading them does no meaningful damage or contribution to the group. He already never dies… he will always do zero dps.
At 140-145GR on my zDH I thought that come 145-150GR I would have to augment my gear to help us progress but this was also wrong. The zBarb and I never die, or even seem take any meaningful damage in 150GR.
The zBarb is keeping up ignore pain and rage flipping. I am keeping sentries on us for 25% damage reduction, marked for death, entangling shot & multishot debuffs up… And that is it. We can’t deal any damage… our buffs don’t scale with gear… I could go full primal ancient with augments and not shave any time off a Greater Rift.
What we are finding is the same thing we see Wudijo and Rax say on their channels “fish 20-30 rifts for good maps/mobs/pylons” … and thats all that makes or breaks our run.
I feel like we need some kind of support gem or support system to allow us to contribute SOME meaningful damage… or have such a gem/system make our buffs stronger. Like Entangling shot debuff is 150%, have it scale to 350% with more gear… or companion is 15% damage, make it 45% max scaling with a lot more gear or gem level or whatever. It just feels like there is no clear progression for zDPS, we are tanky enough to do our job in crap gear and good gear doesn’t have any meaningful impact.
This kinda also made me think… at some point at high Greater Rift levels they need to narrow the map pool down. If everyone from myself up to the best in the world zone into a cave and leave game… or zone into certain mob types and leave game… many many times to fish for a good rift… its a poor design to begin with. Obviously at low GR and to casual/intermediate gamers this is a non issue so at low GR have maximum variety to keep it fresh… but beyond say 135GR? 145GR maybe? Narrow down that map pool and maybe even some mob types so people can actually play the game, not remake the game 20 times for something doable.
Also a valid fix imo. I hate that in rubbish gear no augments I can zDH for an Inna Monk and do GR150… yet full ancients full augments im walling at 141GR solo. I don’t like how we all exist to buff our Inna Monk overlords…
Perfectly said! zDPS is a moronic idea intended for noob players that requires no skill and want to push high rifts. Most zDPS players don’t even bother having a DPS build of their own. I too would rather see all zDPS builds eliminated. That would go along way to reign in speed 150 GRs.
I personaly find it moronic to mess around solo, but i also believe in to each his own, so if you enjoy playing a certain way go ahead and have fun. Some people enjoy playing solo, some playing with friends in a random composition. I enjoy playing in a meta group that synegizes well and requires some setting up, using tactics, keeping up with rota’s, and executing it well. If you think zbarb’s are noobs you really have no idea, the whole pixel barb is an art in itself. Blizzard hasnt created these meta’s, its mostly created from the playerbase, but blizz will also not remove it. Do i think they need to buff zdps even further if you get an ancient, no not really needed.
They made the zDPS possible, so saying they had no hand in it is just wrong.
No one said that. The concept is stupid. It’s a game all about individuals overwhelming power, have people go pure buff/debuffer makes no sense in either a lore or gameplay way.
Chris you are correct in a sense that paying zBarb properly is an art. Unfortunately 95% of the zBrabs have no clue what pixel stomp does. I do. Most zBarbs come into a game and try to gather mobs, in the process CCing them, then they run off to find the next pylon.
I still stand by my post. I think in groups every player should contribute in killing enemies and should be able to stand on their own. The zDPS in my book is just a gimmick. If you can’t even finish a 50 GR on your own, then I don’t think you should join a 150 GR in a group. Just my take. Nothing against groups. Playing with your friends is fun. Mooching off of them, isn’t.
This is what blizzard has to say about it in a blog post from 28 jan 2020:
"There is one notable exception to this. zDPS, or “zero Damage Per Second,” builds tend to only thrive in group play. The team debated for a long time as to whether this was a style we should encourage or actively avoid (or possibly even remove). Any Diablo game is, at its heart, about killing monsters and getting loot, so we considered heavily whether this gameplay fit the spirit of the game we had made.
zDPS is a style of gameplay that some players like, but not all do. We ultimately decided that it’s good that there are unique ways to play the game, and we don’t want to take that fun away from those who enjoy it. However, we’re also not actively trying to create more zDPS builds. Our intent is to design new item powers and sets that either facilitate entirely new builds that can be used solo or in groups, or to give more item support to some of the most requested class skills. Inevitably, regardless of what we add, we know the community will find combinations we never anticipated—and we can’t wait to see how those play!"
So they havent created new sups and yet new ways of supping has been invented by the community since then. Even this season with the shards, people have created ways to buff all players with them.
If you think its only buff/debuff you are quite wrong, you need good gameplay to execute it well. And saying this game is about individuals overcoming power, is the same as saying this game is about exploring, it hasnt been like this for a long time. Expecting it to change back to vanilla would be foolish by now.
But as i said before, you play your way, i play mine, we arent crossing paths so i dont feel hindered by you, as you wont be hindered by me.
Surely there are some noob barbs, maybe in pubs 95% plays like this, but the groups im in dont.
Maybe i should rephrase and say discovered…? You also can say that about anything. But for example bllizard created god set, the interaction with valla’s was discovered. Blizzard created lon/lod, but lod starpact (bazooka) was discovered, reverse archon builds were not created by blizzard but discovered. For sups, ground stomp has been around for ages, but the pixel barb emerged in s16.
I don’t think that reducing the map pool is a good thing; rather, I’d prefer to see every map open for all the runs, with weight removed (allowing equal probability.) I’d also like to see more monster diversity not only in type (so that one does not always get poppers with quill demons or zombie grenadiers) but quantity and their affixes - every critter at GR100+ for example should have 2, even if not elite/champion, if they do not already.
After about 20 runs, they all just feel the same. Yes, the board changes, but that’s about it.
I’m going to point out zDPS DH, which was ONLY made mainstream because of the addition of the “new” Entangling Shot leg affix, +150% damage done to entangled targets. Without it, ppl would still be running zDPS barbs and monks.
With that being said, as long as Area Damage, and grouping up an entire rift into a small compact area is a thing, zDPS barbs, at least, will always remain, as barbs are the only class that can group mobs so easily and reliably.
My first thought was Crusader should be able to, with the pony skill that drags enemies. But, I don’t and haven’t played Crusader enough (only one season and all I did was play on T16 to see how thorns worked or not.)
It seems, on the surface, very similar to Ancient Spear > Rage Flip. (I think that’s its name.) But maybe it does damage.
That is what should happen for sure. Such a terrible idea in an A-RPG.
And if not outright removed, then nerfed a bunch, to make them comparable to full dps groups.
The poor design is that you can leave GRifts at no meaningful cost. The game literally rewards people for being quitters.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Z-anything is simply cheesy and belongs back in WoW where support characters are the norm, not in D3. If you can’t kill the rift boss with your character, you have no business being in a high level GR of any sort. Having to depend on others to do the killing is not an accomplishment. It’s the same as being power levelled. Someone else did all the real work.
Furthermore, I also find the idea of having to fish for rifts that are ‘doable’ utterly ridiculous. If you have to remake games constantly just to be able to succeed at 1 out of 100, the real truth is you aren’t good enough or ready for end-game content. Diablo give us lottery rifts, you win or you don’t; mostly you don’t.
These GR 150 clears are mostly an example of failure on Blizzards’ part. The only way many players will ever see a 150 is to be a Z. The developers don’t seem to have much idea on how to create successful builds across the entire spectrum of classes. Ask yourself which class was intended to be support right from the start. I’m gonna guess…none were.
Well, they only gave the Monk and Crusader abilities that could directly heal other heroes. Back in the dim and distance past, Crusader was the group healer but, when they decided that Consecrations would no longer stack, Monk took over. Now the z’s are mob debuffers / gatherers, and no healer is used.
But they weren’t designed specifically to be a Z. The healing skills were an adjunct, just as many other abilities for various classes are adjuncts (DH’s wolf or Monk mantras for example). Monks and Crusaders still did meaningful DPS.
I don’t remember what Crusaders contributed but I played a monk way back when (Sweeping Wind and Wave of Light builds) and I never, ever was there for my healing. So I’ll stand by my original assertion that Blizzard never intentionally intended any class to be a support class. It’s just something that’s evolved from clever and inventive players.