Yeah, I forgot Nat’s gets the extra primary too. I’ll fix that.
Yeah, the F+R loss is just something that N6G4 can’t recover from. I gave it an honest attempt this season on HC - I stumbled upon a bunch of perfect primal Nats pieces and gave it a few rifts. Did not impress.
I think N6G4 might be perfect for one thing in S21 - more safely fishing for a 150 solo clear on HC heavily utilizing the season theme. Toss in an elusive ring rather than the CoE and you should be one tanky boi. But I’m sure a zDH build would work about as fine, and would pretty easily be significantly more tanky as well. I thought about giving this one a go, but that fishing looks miserable.
As for S22, if I did DH on HC again I’d absolutely utilize Iria’s spec. Tried it out last night and it is maybe the easiest variant of a build ever constructed in this game. Having constant max discipline and multiple seconds of vengeance & fan cooldown overlap puts GoD into the monkey with typewriters can clear 130s territory.
Meanwhile F+R is the crux of the problem with S22 for N6G4 yet again - everything we’re switching out here are set items, so there’s no real boon from the 4th cube slot that GoD6 also wouldn’t benefit from
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Update -
Cleared GR 128 in 12:45.
Previous run was GR 127 at 11:48
Sheet Damage - 3.3m
Gear changes - Nemesis for Wraps
Cube changes -
Ninth Ciri Satchel
Depth Diggers
RoRG
Changed Wraps to Frostburn
Trade off from spawning extra elites and calculated that as often as my clone gets stuck, it was actually worth it to not spawn elites.
@iria
Updated post with a recent set of N6G4 gear/cube combo and a clear of GR 128.
Also - the downside of N6G4 (aside from what was mentioned) is that if you use a key stroke macro program (for arthritic people) , it will be considerably smoother with the GoD6, whereas the N6G4 requires you to manually target Flying Strike.
I don’t use anything like that so it is still a two click mechanic for both the GoD6 and N6G4. I have arthritis and I do feel it mainly because I press a little too hard on the keys (playing HC).
Frostburn provides a small benefit of about 14% more damage (60% cold vs 40% cold) and the chance to freeze which can be detrimental to grouping enemies. I would recommend the Mantle of Channeling over Frostburn since it provides a superior offensive and defensive capability. Alternatively, you can consider something else like the Ess of Johan.
You can find more ideas in my other thread: List of things to put in the 4th cube slot!
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Those were my thoughts initially, and I ended up trying both. First the mantle which, though effective, was not as effective as spawning elite packs. Then I tried Frostburn and that proved considerably more effective. I’m still on the fence about this.
Right now, for my build, Frostburn > Spawning elite (with risk of them getting stuck more so than if you did not spawn) > Mantle of channeling.
Progression Update - Was cruising nicely in GR 130 with 6m to spare and 80% completion when I Crashed. If this was HC, that would be the end of progression for that character.
The results, with Frostburn being the most effective, might be due to my Flavor of Time not having Cold damage. I opted to have one with Dex/100/10/8% DCCCDR (out 27 FoT primals that was the best I could get). I’m sure you can guess how much I spent on trying to get even that.
For those interested. I spent over 50k bounty mats which amounts to roughly 500k souls. You can imagine how that translate on the live servers.
Some people are just luckier than others.
I’m trying to prove that N6G4 is viable, and so far, It is performing better, or on par with GoD6.
There are trade offs in both, but after a bit of testing, I have determined that GoD6 is not as good as N6G4, at least for me. N6G4 is more situational, where as GoD6 is more arthritic friendly (meaning, simply avoid and you shall live).
N6G4 has an escape functionality (great for HC players who are in the thick of it).
GoD6 has a prayer functionality (you pray that the mobs don’t crit hit you while you try to strafe out).
Average clear of rifts when pushing limits (minimum gear/paragon for the rift level, but optimized configuration). Non-optimized configuration often run out of time.
N6G4 - 12-13 minutes
GoD6 - 12-13 minutes (1.5% higher sheet damage)
In that case, Frostburn would provide 16.67% damage, still not enough to beat the Mantle of Channeling’s 25%.
The probability of a primal FoT having Cold, Crit damage, and Crit chance is about 1 in 210. It’s about 1 in 92,000 chance overall per reforge.
Unfortunately, your anecdotal evidence doesn’t prove anything really. As I mentioned repeatedly, N6G4 isn’t weak but is slightly weaker than GoD6 (I showed the details in the d3planner link).
Firstly, mobs can get CC immune if you repeatedly freeze (or another hard CC effect) them. So the freeze procs are not reliable for safety.
Next, mobs cannot critically hit, only players can. Situational awareness and attention to elite affix effects (e.g. molten, frozen, etc.) will prevent most of these types of deaths.
Again, this doesn’t show anything. What was your sample size? Greater rifts have a HUGE variance in difficulty in that an ideal GR 130 can be easier than a very bad GR 125.
I don’t want to sound condescending, but these kinds of posts you’re making are very biased in favor of N6G4 and don’t really provide real evidence as to why N6G4 is better. For example, the numbers don’t add up (e.g. my d3planner link comparing the damage and toughness).
Also, while you may feel N6G4 is performing better, it could be a placebo effect since there have been other players who have tested this setup and noted it wasn’t quite as strong.
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While Frosty’s seem like a good idea, the freeze is annoying AF when you’re pushing. The very reason I don’t use Buriza.
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Its only sounds biased because people keeps bashing it, so I’m going to defend it. Yet, no one has been able to prove me wrong in application. For example. Where are you on the LB for DH in GoD6? Have you even tried running an N6G4, or anyone else that is pro GoD6 for that matter?
D3 planner is what everyone base the build’s performances on, but the reality is, the planner only gives what is an optimal configuration, and never includes RNG scenarios. You even stated it yourself.
Your statements proves my argument.
I’m one of the worst players when it comes to pushing, and yet … I’m out performing most everyone that is equally geared/gemmed in their GoD6.
Plus, I play HC, so I play conservatively, and yet … still out performing most, or keeping in pace with those slightly better geared and of the same LB rank.
Lastly, I saw another N6G4 player on the LB top 100s and his gear was less than mine, and less than any GoD6 players two ranks below him.
A helicopter is technically not supposed to fly, and yet it does …
I have only noticed that on occasion, but it is not permanent. It certainly doesn’t occur often enough to warrant this as a valid claim to not use CC. Heck, what do you think Zbuilds are based on … CC.
And besides, it is mostly about Rain of Vengeance in the build. Sure the mantle might be better, and I will probably switch to it, but I’m my own Z.
Heck, I have even thought of running a GoD6 with Entangling Shot/Hungering arrow combo. I have to figure out which skill I need to sacrifice.
I take that is due to mob groupings, or trying to group?
You don’t need to be on the leaderboards to be able to judge the power of N6G4, just compare to what your current progress in GoD6 vs N6G4 is. GoD6 is not only more powerful in my experience, but far easier to play. N6G4 isn’t bad for keyfarming as you can swap out Cain’s at the guardian, although it’s a bit clunky. Of course I don’t have gameplay video as I’m unable to do so due to my older rig. Recording while playing makes the game unplayable. D3 planner isn’t the worst way to judge the power of a build, or no one would use it. It’s perfectly acceptable to use as it does calculate things well.
That being said, you have the burden of proof. It’s not our job to disprove you. When you make the claim, its on you to back it up. Making a claim and expecting others to disprove you is not how things work.
At the end of the day, it depends on what you like to play. If you like N6G4, then play it. No one is stopping you. Just don’t expect your forum crusade to produce the results you’re looking for if you’re expecting everyone else to disprove you.
Rank 52 DH nonseason NA currently with a GR140 in 14:55 when I was paragon 3218. I am rank 5 in the under 4000 paragon category on the NS leaderboard.
Yes, I tried it and it was clunky to cast Rain of Vengeance often. Since I play softcore, I don’t use Elusive Ring and so my damage was lower while my toughness was higher with N6G4 (since I had to give up Focus/Restraint for RoRG). As for others, DiEoxidE gave it a fair shot on his stream.
No, it doesn’t prove anything. A small sample size with inconclusive anecdotal evidence proves nothing. It is the burden of the proposer of an idea to prove that it works rather than everyone else to prove that it doesn’t work.
You say N6G4 is better than GoD6. I dispute that claim. Therefore, the burden is on you to prove that your statement is true. See this definition of Hitchen’s Razor for more information on this philosophical point.
The HC leaderboard has far fewer players than the SC one. Also, your GR120 clear is at rank 263. Players don’t typically push very hard to get into the top 300; that isn’t to say your clear isn’t impressive, but rather those around you on the leaderboard may not have tried as hard. There is a lot of variance on what GRs those players encountered as well (not to mention the season theme carrying some players).
I don’t understand this reference. A helicopter doesn’t disobey any laws of physics.
As I have mentioned multiple times in my posts, N6G4 is awful for key farming due to it being a resource hog. GoD6 with Yangs and Smoke Screen (Displacement) is far superior. This tells me you’ve never tried the N6G4, or truly know the mechanics of it.
I use D3 planner all of the time. But, if the variance is off by say, 20%, then I will give it a go. I’m all for running something that everyone doesn’t know or care about.
I can GoD6 all day long, proven that I can push with it. Tested it with better gear, and cleared the same Rifts within 30-60 seconds slower. This matches up with LB’s GoD6 vs N6G4 times as well.
Perhaps it is the additive CC from N6G4 that you don’t get from GoD6. Maybe it is even the additive damage you get from other skills that are normally discarded by the GoD6, such as Rain of Vengeance (the primary damage dealer from the Nat set). Remember 14k% applies to all damage you deal from your DH.
D3 Planner doesn’t account for this.
This seems wrong. you don’t gain damage or lose damage with Elusive ring.
Helicopters, on paper, cannot fly. Engineers have proven this, and yet added slight adjustments to make it fly in application. Helicopters are supposed to just go up and down. D3 planner may have proven that N6G4 is inferior to GoD6, but I’m the engineer that is making it “fly.”
Firstly, since the servers lagged out. I have been testing in SC. I’m also at GR 129, or 128, but ranked 63, before servers go down. I’m not pushing hard, just matching the gear that top ranked players have to see where I can place with the same gem/gear/augments.
Because of this, I’m pacing the GoD6 players, or out matching them in time for the same gear/gem/augments.
You are trying to find negatives where there are none. Season 21, I started the season with little more than a month left. Then I switched to PTR.
The fact that you state …
Should tell you that, I’m not pushing very hard in a build that you and the majority of the community deemed is inferior. And yet, I’m keeping pace with those around me.
Heck, you have proven I’m not a genius, or are better than the average player, so why am I literally pacing, or out performing same, or less geared/gem/augment/paragon GoD6 players?
N6G4, as I have said before, is clunky at first. GoD6 is superior, mindless for the sake of ease to normal and arthritic players. N6G4 Like any other builds, however, once you learn it, it becomes muscle memory.
Heck, I have even caught myself hitting Shadow Power (same key assignment as Rain of Vengeance) too often when I swap to the GoD6 build.
And once again, I’m not bashing GoD6, but I’m giving an alternative to a build that dominates a class. Season 21 is such a season where no one in the top 1000 swayed from the build. This tells me no one even considered or tried. No one but myself.
What “paper” are you referring to? No one is disputing that helicopters can fly. If you are referring to the original concept by Leonardo da Vinci, it was an aerial screw which had the right idea but could not fly due to its weight and bad aerodynamics (a lot of laminar drag forces).
The N6G4 build isn’t an “on-paper” bad build, it just gets outclassed at higher GRs by the standard GoD6 setup.
Did you mean PTR leaderboard? If so, those leaderboards are generally meaningless due to the relatively low number of players and the frequently changing testing environment. The DH PTR leaderboard is especially underpopulated this time since DH received zero new items or balance changes aside from the 4th cube slot in season (which all classes received).
I apologize if that is what it seems like. I follow logic and proofs very rigorously. If something is true, then there needs to be compelling evidence, and better yet, a logical sequence of steps showing that it is true.
For example, early in this season, there was a rumor about Valla’s Bequest. Many players were claiming that they felt it was helping their damage but could not explain it. I was very skeptical about the whole thing and was adamant in my denial. I even proved that Valla’s provided no benefit (excluding the extra primary affix) when doing single-target tests in a controlled environment.
However, later we (DiEoxidE, myself, and a few others in the TPA clan) discovered how Valla’s was boosting damage and proved it conclusively in a couple videos. Before this revelation, I was not convinced that Valla’s was useful and advocated against it because of lack of evidence. After that last experiment, I changed my stance on the issue and now fully admit that Valla’s does indeed have an effect and I know how it works.
Returning to the N6G4 debate. On paper (or d3planner), N6G4 isn’t quite as good as a GoD6 setup. Also, your anecdotal evidence of “I’m pacing the GoD6 players, or out matching them in time for the same gear/gem/augments” is not rigorous.
If there was some hidden mechanic that enhances N6G4 more than it appears on d3planner (e.g. some double-dipping of certain buffs), then perhaps N6G4 could be superior. However, such a mechanic would need to be proven to exist (e.g. in a testing environment like Scorched Chapel) and understood before I would change my mind and advocate in favor of the N6G4 build.
If I were to adopt any idea with only circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence, my credibility as a D3 theory-crafter and knowledgeable DH player would be very weak. I trust numbers and logic and because of that I earned the trust of many players who read the forums (at least I hope I have their trust).
Hello NewtonsLaw
I ran a bit of N6GoD4 on the last PTR. I came close to clearing GR135 with it, off by about 7 seconds on an exceptional grift. When you push, you want every bit of damage available. We make little sacrifices over our build to see where we can gain an extra GR or two:
- Archery
- Wolf
- Bait the Trap
- Mark for Death
- etc.
F&R w/ CoE is impossible to recover from losing. Sadly, it boils down to:
GoD6: F&R+Vallas+Extra Skill Slot
vs
N6GoD4: 40% damage and extra defense
No defense will be worth it, especially when GoD6 is already very survivable due to the constant movement.
Season 22 doesn’t help the situation either:
N6GoD4: 40% Dmg + 60% DR + 50% DR
vs
GoD6: Aughild + F&R + 1 Skill Slot
I am one to root for the underdog build, if it brings you satisfaction keep going with it. Maybe one day you’ll appear on the top of the leaderboard? You never know… and sometimes they won’t either.
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