Modernizing all Wizard sets (S25 and/or beyond Suggestions)

Wizard
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With the amazing job with Firebird’s rework, I’d love to see the other sets get this modernization to be top sets. It’s obvious that Firebirds is way ahead of the rest, and probably a bit much ahead (suggestions for that brought from my other thread to here).

Feel free to add and discuss suggestions here, let’s get the rest of the Wizard sets some love and use in meta builds!

So I have this for Firebirds already in General: Suggested Firebird change for upcoming Season 25
TL:DR 2pc up to 4000% ignite damage , 6pc down to 2000% but each non-channeled firebird spell stacks ignite damage (EG: 4000 x 4 spells x combustion stacks)

Tal Rasha’s Elements
(2) Set:
Damaging enemies with Arcane, Cold, Fire or Lightning will cause a Meteor of the same damage type to fall from the sky. There is an 8 second cooldown for each damage type.
(4) Set:
Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each increase all of your resistances by 25% 50%, reduce damage by 10% and increase movement speed by 10% for 8 seconds.
(6) Set:
Attacks increase your damage by 2000% 4000% for 8 seconds. Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each add one stack. At 4 stacks, each different elemental attack extends the duration by 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds.

Philosophy: This makes it for our all purpose damage set like intended, while keeping it glass cannon but not get sneezed on by anything above GR105. (Seriously it’s that bad). Making it perfect for speeds yet still competitive to push (just not the very best)

Delsere’s Magnum Opus:
(2) Set:
Casting Arcane Orb, Energy Twister, Explosive Blast, Magic Missile, Shock Pulse, Spectral Blade, or Wave of Force reduces the cooldown of Slow Time by 3 seconds.
(4) Set:
You take 60% 80% reduced damage while you have a Slow Time active. Allies inside your Slow Time gain half benefit but also gain double the rune effect.
(6) Set:
Enemies affected by your Slow Time and for 5 seconds after exiting take 12,500% increased damage from your Arcane Orb, Energy Twister, Explosive Blast, Magic Missile, Shock Pulse, Spectral Blade, and Wave of Force abilities and also Doubles your Area Damage

Philosophy: Time to bring this group play intended set to it’s glory. This should be the set you want to use while assisting allies, not some solo intended set like Firebird. By amplifying it’s group utility and giving it more group bonus focused damage you can accomplish this by not changing it’s set damage modifier.

Vyr’s Amazing Arcana:
2) Set:
Archon gains the effect of every rune.
(4) Set:
Archon stacks also increase your Attack Speed, Armor, and Resistances by 1%.
(6) Set:
You gain 1 2 Archon stacks when you hit with an Archon ability and Archon stacks also reduce damage taken by 0.15% and have their damage bonus increased to 100%.

Philosophy: We’ve been here before with different modifiers, but now we need to be here again with these same modifiers. We might need to once again tone down Chantodos though, but not by much at all since it’s still behind the meta.

The Typhon’s Veil:
I’m not entirely sure what to do with this one as it’s been adjusted so many times already and it’s in a good spot damage and DR wise, but would fall behind in the meta after anymore changes. Maybe just add double attack speed buff on hydras and be done with it.

What are some of y’all’s suggestions and what do you think?

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It`s a bit to quiet on the Wizards forum. So I take on that suggestion. I guess it’s just to op your Tal Rasha suggestion.

Tal Rasha’s Elements
(2) Set:
Damaging enemies with Arcane, Cold, Fire or Lightning will cause a Meteor of the same damage type to fall from the sky. There is an 8 second cooldown for each damage type.
(4) Set:
Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each increase all of your resistances by 25% 50%, and increase movement speed by 10% for 8 seconds. At 4 stacks, each different elemental attack extends the duration by 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds.
(6) Set:
Attacks increase your damage by 2000% 2500% for 8 seconds. Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each add one stack. At 4 stacks, each different elemental attack extends the duration by 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds.

I really like the movement speed increase cause all new sets are high mobility. But after doubling the resistance gain to add even a damage reduction on top of it? Just to much. I would go with just a moderate damage increase cause at 4000% no one would play LoD FO or even DMO FO.

With DMO your suggestion is solid, but should it really double Area Damage? I guess not. But 80 % reduced damage is standard now and a doubled rune effect does not hurt.

For Typhon’s Veil I guess you wanted something like this?

6p: Your Hydras deal 20.000% increased damage for each Hydra head alive and you have a 25% chance to double the attack speed of your pets on hit.

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Intersting, but would you have that be 25% on hydra atack, or character attack? what i mean, should you be able to proc the double attacks, with same blizzard, or spectral blade. or would it only be on hydra hits.

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I guess it should proc on your hits. Spectral Blade, etc. and double the attack speed of your pets for 3 seconds. Or every consecutive hit increases the attack speed of your pets by 10% to a maximum of 100% for 3 seconds. That would help to close the gap between the LoD version and Typhons Veil. How it is done and worded I don`t care, but to add a attack speed increase is an overall good suggestion.

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Let me completely break Tal’s real quick:

Tal2: The first target hit by a primary attack will trigger an equipped Force spell of the same element type, dealing 300% increased damage.
Tal4: Take 80% reduced damage. Reduce the cooldown of all Defensive skills by 60%
Tal6: All damage dealt is increased by 6000% for every stack of Elemental Exposure. Elemental Exposure now gains 10% additional damage per stack.
Tal’s Orb rolls 300% to all Force spells

Lets Roll!

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looking at the force skills that is Wave of force, Twisters, hydra’s, meteor and blizzard. Out of those Twisters has the most multipliers but lags the game. could have the metoer shower tals builds back, but without being able to proc AD since the skill would be a proc. severly limiting the amount of damage. although reading the 6pc again. I think someone would try and make SP a thing again. although it might not have the damage numbers, 300% on sigil, wouldn’t equal the damage lost from old etched sigil

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Yes it has, so thanks for reviving this! Nearly forgot myself so my reply is late as well.

Admittingly that was an idea from another poster @Astig I believe on the thread specifically about how bad TR is discussing Firebird update changes, I had added it also needs a lot more survivability and more damage, and yes maybe 4,000% is a bit much but only 500% is definitely too little. I understand the LoD argument, but I’d much rather have LoD fade than TR be always left in the dust. LoD definitely had it’s time in our metas, dominating most of it if you actually compare back to it.

Remember double damage is only about 4.5 GR’s, but the increase in resistances and DR would skyrocket it likely 10 GR’s which actually puts it in meta. Fair, so maybe 5% per then? It simply cannot continue to have 0 DR despite AR boost if we want it modernized.

They’d use DMO in groups for sure, double area damage >>> 25% more damage from set by a lot. But yeah LoD would get the boot, I’m fine with that but others wouldn’t be, good point. I know actually a lot of players who were enjoying Vyr’s archon FO this season, painful playstyle and challenging but fun to some so it’s not like FO wouldn’t have options here.

Lol again I don’t want these to go overboard, just catching them up to be viable for meta. I’ve always pushed for attack speed boost in hydras, in that case you wouldn’t need damage increase, because that would be the damage increase. Definitely not 20,000% per head to something that actually can push past 135 NS unlike Tal Rasha and DMO.

But Yes DMO @ 60% is pretty outdated seeing as this is our supportive like set, it actually doesn’t make much sense that Typhoon got the 80% and DMO didn’t.

Lol Let’s GOOOOO TAL season!! Now that I think about it, have we ever had a Tal Rasha dominated season since like S3? Like just TR not mixed with Vyrs or Birds or anything else?

Regardless it’s definitely needs to be next, 8000% with no DR is just so awfully outdated by like 12 seasons or so.

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Doubling the damage sounded so big on Tal Rasha, but in reality it is not. It will stay damage wise behind LOD FO but will be stronger than DMO FO. But that’s okay. But for the defense doubling the resistance should be enough. Cause it will increase the effectivnes of flat +all res on gear and through paragon. And you benefit of the movespeed increase. So now I’m totally fine with +4000% damage. And it will enable a super cool, very fast T16, bounty build. Tal 6 FB 4.

Only the 6 piece rotation mechanic should go into the 4 piece. So you can keep your resistance buff up for much longer.

But attack speed boost for Hydras feels so natural. But instead of a 100% increase it should have 150% attack speed increase. Especially if it reliant to a proc.

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With the PTR coming up. We should take a united effort to push some Wizard changes. So maybe we are going to see an updated Tal Rasha set, with S26.

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Hey, they really listened to the feedback given this time around. So I guess it’s our best shot to have them note what changes we would like to see for the Wizard. Especially for an updated Tal Rasha set. Clearly not happening in Patch 2.7.2 but possible for 2.7.x. :slight_smile:

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yeah, they did… and that’s the good news. But they overdid it again, killing the Mirrorbird build completely, and also unruned Hydra along with it.

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Definitely good news and the quickest fix for sure. Not the healthiest thing long run for the set so I’d like down the road to see adjustments like my idea or a few others because something else will always come up using Deathwish because without it images were actually quite balanced so kinda sucks for them to be completely dead but they definitely had their time and of course I’d take the death of images over the death of the entire set which is what we were faced with before latest update.

Now at least we can hold our own, still won’t be close to top metas with Necro, DH buffs and Monk still having juiced up Innas and who knows what that update did to WD but we’re at least playable and our speeds don’t get punished. Because of that we definitely have a case for being next on the buff list for sure.

TL:DR Update = Bittersweet but that’s good for a nerf.

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Still no Tal Rasha Rework. I’m just so done for it. I have nothing against turning it into a meteor set.

Tal Rasha’s Elements
(2) Set:
Damaging enemies with Arcane, Cold, Fire or Lightning will cause a Meteor of the same damage type to fall from the sky. There is an 8 4
second cooldown for each damage type.
(4) Set:
Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each increase all of your resistances by 25% 50%, ** increase movement speed and damage reduction by 10%** for 8 seconds. At 4 stacks, each different elemental attack extends the duration by 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds.
(6) Set:
Attacks increase your damage also by 2000% for 8 seconds. Damage is doubled for Meteor. 25% Chance to call down a multi elemental Meteor that deals 5000% Weapon damage.

Actually I miss the autocasted channeling Meteor builds.

All the other suggestion are still valid.

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Despite the necromancy of the threadosia, you guys have some nice ideas. I may have missed it but Tals is going to need some defense. As of right now there is no point, IMO, to combining Tals with other sets. Even with the modernization of the sets Wiz needs more work. Hydra set is clunky monky. Way too much set up to get the greatest juice extraction. I know the devs were trying to evoke nostalgia, but its a bit too much. They need to take a page out of the Marauder design:
…you roll up → whip out the thwaps → buck shot → buck shot → buck shot → walk the dogs forward.

With Typhons you have to drop 2 dragon packs for defense and then go through pre-wash, wash-1 and wash-2 cycles and then rinse and possibly another wash and rinse cycle depending on the need to reposition or chase kiters.

Maybe I’m just getting old but I keep thinking why must I jump through 3 to 5 hoops to reach the apex of my damage output?

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Sup BD! Yeah I was surprised this gained traction late but I guess the more we get ignored the more we should be bringing this up and yes did miss the added defense I was asking, all good:

So 200% AR, 40% DR. Honestly looking back at this that still seems slim, but I could be wrong since Tal Rasha can fit in a lot more being a 7PC set. The movement speed idea was actually from someone else that posted on another thread in General IIRC (could be wrong) so moved that over here.

I wouldn’t be against Gegeforce’s meteor idea and TR being more meteor centric though since Firebird’s became a tad more diversified (although really most just use Blades / EB / twister or a combo of all 3).

And yes I believe hydra is still a bit clunky, if we cannot figure out how to get DMO more mobile than Typhon should definitely get faster acting. And no haha we might be getting old but we’ve always had to go through too many hoops for damage, whilst the other classes get to get less and less, I believe not withstanding modifiers that it’s actually one of our biggest reasons for being behind now.

The others bringing up an auto self-casted bubble probably have the right idea there, like maybe the 2pc everytime you cast Time Bubble it casts a bubble on you and doubles duration (or tbh lasts forever wouldn’t even be OP).

Wudijo’s recent video also has some very solid DD (due diligence not direct damage lol) about improving wizards as well you guys can check out and give feedback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTTxISB7Nlo&t=1084s

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Honestly, if they just buff up the archon skills directly via Vyr, as well as make chantodo optional (nothing against it, but I dislike), and maybe add some cd reduction mechanic for Archon to the Vyr set; I’d be rather happy.

But looking at some of changes to the sets as of late, I have the creeping feeling that whenever (or if ever) they touch on Vyr Set, they’d either add a skill or two that we’d need to use (like wave of force or energy twister) in order to gain special archon stacks that let us deal damage or majorly buff up only one of the archon skills (like Wave of Disintegration or Arcane Blast).

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Honestly I think wizards are in a really good place!

We have multiple a tier pushing builds in Firebirds (that comes in two flavours), LoD twister and Vyr. Typhon and DMO not that far behind. Only one set really lagging behind which is better than most other classes. We don’t have an s tier at the moment that is played in metas, but honestly we’ve had it so good over so many seasons, it’s almost fair.

We have one of the best T16 builds in the game with Typhon, which is also top 2 for bounties.

The missing piece is a really fast strong build for XP runs and GR90s. Firebird is ok for XP but despite the mobility is inherently slow with the two step damage, small aoe and no built in pull. Other builds lack mobility. Typhon was ok GR90 with the damage buffs in S24 and 25 (but even then seriously lacking damage compared to inna or God for example), and will really struggle to get even 90 second GR90 S26. Vyr might be a better option now?

On a side note I don’t get why ppl say Typhon is clunky. It’s super fast with aether Walker, and yeah it needs setup when pushing, but almost all pushing builds of any class is setup for the 4s damage burst in Coe cycle, with few exceptions. I think that’s fine, it’s satisfying with a big damage burst instead of a slow trickle. :man_shrugging:

Oh and support wizards needs help as well of course! It was quite strong with old GoD and with bone spear, and somewhat playable with marauder, but it’s not great and could certainly use some buffs. The DMO changes to zwiz in the OP seem a bit forced (and maybe too much), probably better with a smaller easier change and just revert elemental exposure to work for allies. Support balance is a bigger problem involving most classes though, tbh it’s more that zbarb and zdh needs a nerf…

Another side note: why is wudi complaining about deathwish? It’s used in one flavour of one set right? It’s barely in the game.

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I think the lack of global modifiers this season will really showcase what classes/sets need the most attention. Going in I’d pretty much classify it as 3 tiers by main stat.

  1. Dexterity. These two classes aren’t perfect, they certainly have sets that could use some help but they have multiple sets and/or builds that are well designed top performers. Good at speed and push content, pretty clearly the two best classes right now.

  2. Strength. This is actually where my ‘good place’ would be. Most sets are good, but maybe need some damage and/or toughness increases. Not a lot of full reworks needed in either class. Where I’d say the balance is best and where I’d like to see the entire game balance point be.

  3. Intelligence. These three classes are way behind the pack, sometimes massively. The WD got some help, but not nearly enough. The Necromancer basically has no sets at this point. The Wizard will be the focus of the remaining post.

The Wizard’s single biggest problem is Teleport, and it’s embarrassing that this skill is in this shape 10 years into this game. A “long” cooldown mobility skill is just mind boggling on a class with so few cooldown needs. You really need either Firebirds or Aether Walker to make the skill viable and that’s a non-starter, really. Giving up a weapon slot for pure utility in a game that demands such massive damage multipliers from it’s weapon slots makes no sense.

Every class has a mobility skill, there is no need for such massive limitations on Teleport.

To me, Wizard sets/builds have never been in a good place. Most of the time they’re either ‘meh’ or way overpowered due to a bug/glitch or some other unintended interaction that once fixed brings the build crashing down.

Take Firebirds for example. Arguably still the class’s best set and most recent re-work. Not every skill works with it, and after the AI skill removal very, very few skills work with it. Gets the much needed cooldown on Teleport but then gets tied to a channeling skill. These two concepts dont really work that well together so the end result is the set that should have the most mobility is actually not that good in speed content.

There is just a lot of stuff like this that doesn’t make much sense for Wizard. It’s often more beneficial to be out of Archon. DMO buffs a ton of stuff but there aren’t really that many skills with supporting legendaries worthy of being buffed. Tal Rasha is basically a gimped, conditional version of LOD. Speaking of LOD builds, there’s Twisters, which while it can be very powerful, it’s also something that’s really kind of pain to play to anywhere near it’s potential.

For most classes, you just don’t run into this many contradictions. Stuff just works and that’s not something I think I’d really ever say about any era of the Wizard class.

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DR should be fine I still don’t know if 200% AR or 75 % per stack is enough. And if 40% DR is not needed at all. Cause move speed is some kind of defensive. But the best QoL improvement for Tal is incorporating the 6p stack mechanic into the 4 piece. Makes it much easier and more fluid to play.

This is something a lot of Wizards have voiced their opinion on. With similiar ideas.

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I’ve never really played DMO as dps, but a second auto-cast bubble would ruin the zwiz. Monsters get stunned and cc-immune at the edge of the bubble, so having another bubble in the wrong place would make you lose control of mobs, and make it much harder to group and pixel them with a twister. There are so many bubbles around anyway, you really don’t want twice as many bubbles where you cant really control where the others go. I’d imagine a dps DMO would have the same problem, especially if played with twister. You have so many bubbles already, and so much (partially unwanted) cc, you really don’t need more bubbles and more cc that you can’t fully control… :grimacing: