ofc not
your just cutting through the cakes of mob trains and when the item drops you will see it
as i said
i like the slow paced style and the activity of looking at items itself
For you.
It still involves making meaningful choices, whether they are about making the choice between a simple defensive or a simple offensive upgrade, but it is still a meaning full choice that stacks up in the end.
If every choice is like âDo you want to deal 30% increased Fire Damage after you stood still for 3 secondsâ or do you want your Fire Skills to no longer deal their damage instantly, but instead deal 130% of their initial damage over 6 seconds?", then that just changes your build to much with every choice you have to make.
I even would say that having only access to such choices that only change mechanics and the way your character plays and no more âgenetricâ ones is a terrible design philosophy, because in the end every character will have an altered playstyle.
So what you call âboring choicesâ is by default not a bad thing, especially when you might them together with other systems in which you have a choice between more âboring genericâ options and more âinteresting mechanical alteringâ options.
But they are not the only choices you have.
A level up would give you Attribute Points, Passive Skill Points and Skill Points.
You Attribute Points would be more genetic, but your Passive and Active Skill Points could be spend into more âinterestingâ stuff as you call it.
The only reason for why I put Hit Recovery in there is because I otherwise would have put something called âx% increased maximum Staggerâ in its place, but then I had to explain what I actually mean with that, which is basically this here:
With Movement Speed you can kite enemies better and escape better.
With more Defense you can hold on longer in a fight.
With more CC Resistance you remain CCâed less intensely and for a shorter duration.
With more Offense, well you kill faster.
Stagger allows you to take a lot more damage before you get microstunned.
Stamina allows you to move out of dangerous zones or heavy incoming hits more often.
I disagree with that statement.
Bland does neither mean boring, nor usless, nor does it mean that it can not have a noticeable impact on gameplay.
Okay, but a loot filter system isnât going to take that away. The pacing of the game is dependent on factors that are mostly unrelated to what kind of loot you may or maynât see via a loot filter system; like how powerful your character is and how fast they can cut down enemies. And the activity of looking at items itself would still be more than enough possible for you.
sure
but the drop rate (comparing d2 to d3) is a huge factor in that scenario
and when you balance a game around a loot filter system, you WILL increase the drop rate and then everything tends in that direction
But it is.
1% damage increase is just that. 1% damage increase. 1% damage reduction is just that. 1% damage reduction.
Those arenât interesting. Itâs just number manipulation. Which weâve seen to the extreme in D3. A bell that does 1 million, 1 billion, 1 trillion, 1 quadrillion is the same as any other bell gameplay wise.
Which is what your stats are essentially based on. It doesnât matter if itâs a fraction of a fraction of the value. Or if itâs limited. Or if itâs âplayer choiceâ.
If the best you can come up with is generic stat increases then youâve only just copy pasted designers who came before.
Great. You generically live longer, you generically kill faster, you generically kite better. Youâve made a copy paste system for similar classes to function the same with the same stats.
2 barbs with 2 different builds with the same stats have the same generic boring bonuses. Even if they choose a few different stats in one or the other you pretty much just have similar generic numbers.
Thatâs not interesting.
150 strength vs 140 strength and 10 stat into rage is barely any difference. Or whatever those stats are.
And you wouldnât want to miss out on that 100%+ generic damage increase across the board.
Why canât all 3 be interesting and synergistic and build defining?
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Well, Iâm certainly not asking to have Diablo 4 balanced around the existence of a Loot Filter system. That would lead to issues of players needing to use a loot filter system otherwise their screens will be filled with dropped items, and thereby making seeing or clicking anything on the screen a chore.
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They might be bland, but that does not mean that
- they are useless
- that all affixes, attributes, passives, etc, have to be âspecialâ
It is like âIf everyone is special, then no one is special anymoreâ.
Your analogy is not adequate.
It is not like you are having the choice between 1% increased damage and 10% increased damage, but rather that you have the choice between 1% increased damage, 1% increased movement speed, 1% reduced damage taken and 1% reduced cooldownsâŚ
âŚand then lets not forget about that this stacks up, so you could end up with e.g. 30% increased damage, 45% reduced damage taken, 60% increased movement speed and 25% reduced cooldownsâŚ
⌠or any other combination of your desire.
^^ The numbers are of course just examples.
Well, I also came up with a lot more interesting stuff, but that all is on the Passive Skills System as you can see here:
In your opinion.
Why?
You would be a lot easier to kill, for various reasons, like significantly reduced toughness, you get staggered and CCâed more often, you can not use your Dodgerolls / Sidesteps that often, you can not run away that fast on low health in situations where you wanna escape, you could not use your defensive skills that often due to less available resource and cooldowns lasting longer, etc
âŚ
So in the end it is a matter of balance.
- 1 -because they already are,
- 2- because you need both deterministic (aka consitent) reward/upgrades (aka incremental power increases) as well as non-deterministic (irregular rewards/upgrades (aka items)
- 3 - because otherwise you simply could merge the Attribute System together with the Passive Skill System (since the wouldnât be any different from each other),
- 4 - because spending points into various different system is fun.
- 5 - because even if they are bland bonuses, they still define your character in a way that more âinterestingâ bonuses probably couldnât
- 6 - because just because they are bland does not mean that they are bad or useless
- and probably a few more reasons that do not currently come to my mind at the moment
To come back to an example I gave previously, what if the only way for you to increase your (fire) damage would be:
âDo you want that your fire damage increases by 30% after you stood still for 4 seconds, or do you want that your fire skills no longer deal their damage instantly and instead deal 130% of their initial damage over 7 seconds?â
What would happen then is that every build would have to be altered, just because you want everything to be âinterestingââŚ
The interesting gameplay from those is choosing between them. Not what they do.
That said, I am against universal stats, so instead of +1% dmg, make it +1% melee dmg, ranged dmg, single target dmg, fire dmg etc. It should always be a goal that different builds might desire different stats.
That is still not making these stats very interesting, but at least there is more strength/weakness involved in the choices. Not merely choosing between dmg and defense, but also between different types of dmg etc.
And then yeah, something like proc effects etc. can all be more interesting, since they directly affect the gameplay.
But it doesnât have to be either/or.
Attribute systems kinda have to be more generic than item affixes though, since there are less to pick from.
Iâd probably prefer a system where each attribute got an offensive element, a defensive element, and a utility element. Instead of separating those into their own attributes. Other than it being more interesting, imo, I have yet to see a game that really managed to balance the choice between offensive and defensive attributes. Too often you just end up picking one.
If you make the attributes too build defining, then you are creating the same problem D3 sets had.
Or Wolcens attributes have (even though their attributes are kinda interesting, relative to nearly all other A-RPGs).
If you have 3 attributes, and they are build-defining, and fulfilling their own small niche, then you have limited all builds to be 1 of 3 types.
Like in Wolcen with Crit, attack speed or debuff procs being a very defining aspect of your build.
So imo, you need to be somewhat careful about making each attribute too strongly build-defining and unique.
It should feel like you are missing out on something important, whenever you choose not to pick an attribute. Not merely âI am making a crit build, so I pick crit attributeâ, but rather âsince I am focusing heavily on crit, my character will have significant weaknesses in other areasâ. At least that is a strength with the heavily separated âoffense/defense/utilityâ attributes Clueso is showing. If you go all offense, it is clear you are missing out on defense.
In Wolcen missing out on crit is not really a loss for a character that isnt focused on crit anyway. Each attribute is their own little niche, where you dont really need or want the other ones.
ADA Powers are kinda like that (though I really do like those, as affixes, not attributes). Missing out on increased buff duration is not a loss for builds that arent focusing on buffs. Missing out on proc chance is not a loss for builds not focused on procs.
Missing out on more HP? Well, that matters for everyone.
Also, I think it is important for an attribute system, that all the benefits you can get through it, is also available as gear affixes.
So as with ADA powers, if Angelic gives you buff duration increase, then there should also be be a buff duration gear affix. So you can address your weaknesses from the attribute choices in your gear, if you want to, or alternatively double down on improving the strength gained from your attribute of.
Anyway, ADA as it currently stands, would not make for a good attribute system. It only gives 1 bonus on its own. Otherwise it just unlocks affixes on gear (which remains a huge issue, if you cant get those affixes otherwise⌠that is too build-defining, too build-limiting, once again resulting in 3 overarching ways to build a character, based on the power you chose to focus on)
I think I would go for attributes closer to this:
Str: Increase single target dmg, chance to stun targets, physical resistance
Dex: increase attack speed, dodge and block chance
Int: Increase aoe radius (not dmg), elemental resistance
Wis: Increase damage over time, Pierce enemies resistance, reduce debuff duration
With all 4 attributes offering both dmg and defense. But even if you go for AoE, you will fight single target bosses too, so the strenghts and weakness is at least more well-defined than with Wolcens system (or the ADA system).
And then also keep ADA as its own gear-based system (maybe ADA could connect to some end-game system instead)
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And the game would be boring and uninteresting because you donât want to move past outdated incremental generic bonuses as a base system for character creation.
If all you can see is systems where we end up with 150 of a stat, and 120 of a stat, and 60 of a stat, and 100 of another stat.
Well the only thing those stats can do is give incremental bonuses of varying amounts.
Nothing about that is interesting. Itâs been done. 100% more melee damage. 120% more ranged damage. 200% more armor. 25% more evasion. Whatever you want to put in there itâs just a small incremental bonus of complete and utter blandness that every single game does over and over and over.
Static passive stats with almost no interaction with skills. Almost no player choice besides the initial choice. Arbitrary obfuscated break points instead of clear ones.
You pretty much donât care what skills you get with what attributes. Because itâs all the same.
A build with bash and hammer of the ancients pretty much gets the same out of stats as a build with cleave and seismic slam which pretty much gets the same out of stats as a build with frenzy and whirlwind.
Why? For what purpose? Whatâs the goal of a stat system thatâs supposed to differentiate character builds if all builds just get the same thing in equal amounts?
In your opinionâŚ
In your opinionâŚ
I disagree, because first it is not boring (in my opinion and in the opinion of many others), and secondly because there would other customization systems that have what you would describe as âmore interestingâ effects.
If you think that a whole game would become boring because there is one thing in it you do not like, then you must find all games pretty boring, which is kinda sad.
ONE System out of 3 Systems in total (Attributes, Passive Skills and Active Skills) and 4 if you also include Items into that.
As I already told you, you wanna have a mix of various systems, because you wanna have one or more that give smaller, incremental but more regular rewards (on level up), as well as more RNG heavy rewards that give greater upgrades (like that very rare legendary item that gives a large power boost).
If you just have one or the other, then this situation will happen:
- players play and play the game and make levelup after level up, but since there are no regular incremental bonuses that they can look for which will come in a determented time via a Levelup, they are completely reliant on an upgrade that although massive, could be 4 weeks away or even longer.
- players will only get incremental upgrades and they know when they are gonna happen (e.g. next Levelup in about 1 hour or whatever), but since there are no amazing Loot Drops and the Items are boring, the excitement for a potentially massive upgrade is missing, which makes the game less interesting to play.
That is why you want to have both regular but incremental upgrades, and more RNG heavy but larger upgrades in the game.
In your opinionâŚ
And that by and of itself is not bad, as I already explained and illustrated several times.
How do you know that they donât have any interaction with the other systems?
There could be a Keystone Passive that gives you an interesting effect or a bonus when you have at least xxx Points into the Mobility Attribute. Or a Legendary that gives you an interesting effect or bonus based on your movement speed, so if you make a builds around that item, you may wanna spend more points into the Mobility Attribute⌠etcâŚ
Here, I give you an example:
^^ the more movement speed you have, the more damage you deal with this weapon, so you may wanna focus more on the Mobility Attribute, or the item rewards builds that already focus more on the Mobility Attribute.
or this one here:
^^ the more lightning resistance you have, the more flat lightning damage this weapon gains, so when you play a character that gets a bonus to all resistances from its defensive attribute, you might wanna invest more into the defensive attribute, since he gets a bonus to all resistances from that which also buffs the weapon, or this weapon rewards builds that already have a lot of points in the defensive attribute.
Similar things can be done for Active Skills and Passive Skills.
You pretty much care about what Attributes you use depending on your (preferred) playstyle or if you wanna make a build around around a specific legendary or Keystone Passive that has an interaction with the Attributes or one or more of their bonuses they provide.
Why? Why do you think they would all choose the same Attributes?
It is up to you to choose what Attributes to use and in the end it depends on what playstyle you prefer! Do you prefer to more offensive? to be more mobile? to be more tanky? to use your skils more often? And of course choosing to prioritize one come at the cost of the others.
If I would be a HotA Barbarian, I probably would wanna focus more on the defensive attribute because I would be in the thicl of things more often than a Seismic Slam Barbarian, who is more often fighting from a bit further away and therefore he might wanna focus more on the Mobility Attribute and maybe even the Resource Management Attribute as well to use skills like Leap more often for better positioning.
Hereâs something I just thought combined with something else I through of in the past up to illustrate my thoughts.
Imagine a base stat system where you put 50 points in a stat called strike (itâs a working name). You then get a strike super point (also a working name).
You then put it into a strike skill like Multishot which gets you a rune like effect. Add a rocket, add a bit of slow, reduce the cost, whatever.
Another Demon Hunter. With 50 Strike stat. With a different Strike skill. Letâs say Cluster Arrow because I canât think of anything else.
If itâs super point choices are different, then that means that the two characters who use the same base stat donât get the same effect.
This isnât some crazy refined idea, just something off the top of my head. But the point is that the stat itself is considered in multiple fashions for multiple builds directly related to the skills the player chooses outside of the normal resource cost reduction and cooldown reduction.
And outside of the legendary bonuses like attaching movement speed to a damage increase (which is just the same linear stat increase Iâm complaining about).
Yes you consider base stats on their effect per build. But if you want tankiness you only get X% damage reduction or X% health with stats.
But what if putting points into âTankinessâ gave your tanking skills different utility options, like increased duration, movement speed bonus, an explosion because explosions are cool, random lightning shooting out of your eyeballs that stuns because thats weird.
But not all those bonuses were available to all Barbarians because they donât all use the same defensive skills?
And yes you can keep going back to that passive thing. Everyone always does. âBut passives do this already so why do base stats need to?â
Because itâs more interesting to have base stats be something that affects individual skills. It means investing into them is a bigger piece of a big puzzle than just flat bonuses.
That is not what Iâm saying.
Any Barb who chooses 20 points into tankiness gets 20 points worth of tankiness and thatâs it. The only consideration, the only thought process there, is do I want to be more tanky? Yes/No.
Thatâs it. Itâs a simple question to answer.
Any barb who chooses 20 points of Rage gets those 20% of whatever there is. They all get the same incremental bonuses. No matter what skills, what items, what ever. 20 Rage points = 20 Rage points and thatâs the end of that thought process.
Because thatâs all those stats can ever be if they are set as a system designed to slowly increment some attribute of a character in a generic form.
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You donât need the Attribute System for things like these.
========================
If there would be just your idea that Attributes are always by default giving âinterestingâ bonuses regardless in what why, then you reduce build diversity because every single build will be altered by default, and none will just be a build that is âjustâ enhanced, but not altered.
But it already is that way when you also have Passives, Legendaries, etc that give you a bonus that either based on the amount of points you have in a particular Attribute or that unlock a special âinterestingâ effect when you have at least xxx points in an attribute.
I also mentioned that there can be Passives and Legendaries that give you a special âinterestingâ bonus if you have at least xxx points in a particular Attibute.
For example:
If you have at least 200 Points in the Offensive Attribute, you gain:
° 15% Increased Attack Speed
° +200 to All Resistances
° 10% Dodge Chance
° 15% Cooldown Reduction
Or:
If you have at least 125 Points in the Mobility Attribute, you can more through obstacles unhindered.
Stuff like that works for Passive Skills, Active Skills and also for Items.
And why is that bad?
Why is it bad that you âjustâ gain xx% reduced damage when you wanna be more tanky?
Remember, there are also other ways that you can become more tanky.
These things can and should exist, but you donât need the Attribute System to do that. I explained and illustraded further above for why that is.
The big difference between what I suggest and what you suggest is not that these more âinteresting and specialâ bonuses wouldnât exist in my proposal. The difference is that in my prpposal they would be optional, while in yours they would be mandatory.
And that in and of itself is not bad.
Except they are not, and I provided various examples for that.
The difference between what you propose and what I propose is - again - that your âchoiceâ to make something âspecial and interestingâ is mandatory, while mine is optional.
Yeah, I have argued for something similar with the ADA system. Where each skill have a modification based on whether you are going A D or A (I guess highest stat would be the one that mattered). Could be interesting.
It shouldnât replace a more fully-fledged skill mod system though, as this one would seem quite limited, and limiting, if it was the only skill mods you had. Could just be some thematically appropriate bonus modification based on your chosen direction.
Another thing I would like to see is more skills having different scaling/weights with different stats, both attributes and affixes.
Like Fireball might get more direct dmg from Int, but maybe Fireball also applies a burn dot, that increases with Str. A defensive Frost Armor spell might get more dmg absorbed with Str, but also have a Thorns effect that scales with Dex. A skill mod might make the Frost Armor able to benefit from Life Steal. Another mod might make you get mana back when you are hit, based on how much Arcane resistance you have. Etc. Making you more interested in different stats/afixes for different builds.
None of this requires attributes though. And while attributes can interact more with skills, in interesting ways, an attribute system also needs to work on its own in my opinion, giving various boosts to the character.
Itâs a good idea, but why not just take those archetypes-specific stats instead of mixing them with more generic ones ? Also, why should only Sorceress have +AoE ?
Youâre talking about content here, not character system.
I think itâs possible to have both simplicity and depth in a single system. Something easy to delve into while allowing some complex combos for those who want to scratch there head around it.
Of course not. Just up the other classes and skills. There will always be better builds than others, just make sure they are not far too strong to be mandatory.
Remember what happened in D2 where you had to put everything in Vitality⌠A new player had no way to know that before they broke their character.
Having both offense and defense per attribute is a way to prevent this scenario. Thatâs what they did in PoE, or in Pillars of Eternity and from what Iâve heard it worked very well.
And itâs not especially casual either, and provides some real build options.
Another possibility is to offer only offensive or defensive attributes. Not the best solution thoughâŚ
Isnât that the very definition of a build ?
I agree not everything has to fundamentaly change the way you play but every system has to fill a spot. Random affixes are already there to increase your basic stats, why add attributes on top of that ? Not that it canât work, but itâs kind of redundant.[quote=âShadout-2849, post:88, topic:23762â]
If you have 3 attributes, and they are build-defining, and fulfilling their own small niche, then you have limited all builds to be 1 of 3 types.
Like in Wolcen with Crit, attack speed or debuff procs being a very defining aspect of your build.
[/quote]
I donât know about Wolcen but I can imagine many different builds specialized in Crits or Attack speed. Itâs just a first step, a base from where you could branch to more specific mechanics.
Of course ADA is a better way to design this since they synergize with many different systems (skills, runewords, affixesâŚ)
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Yeah, I have mentioned it before, but Pillars of Eternity is my favorite attribute system in any game. Str monk, int mok, dex monk? All useful in different ways.
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Yes I remember you mentioned that, which was funny because I had just seen his GDC conference a few weeks earlier. ^^ Very interesting stuff !
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I want the attribute system to do these things because itâs bland and boring to just copy paste old systems. Or building limited systems around single though processes like your hydra thing.
Guess what itemization becomes if you do something like that?
Exactly like D3âs single skill items. A massive limit to itemization and build variety centered around one skill builds.
MORE STAT INCREASES! MORE! GENERIC STAT INCREASES ACROSS THE BOARD! MORE I SAY!
DAMAGE! DEFENSE! MORE! APPLY IT TO ALL SKILLS ALL THE TIME!
So boring.
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But if you tie it into the attribute system you join together the game as a whole.
Stats, skills, items, all of them become tied together to the singular purpose of the build. Rather than the generic purpose of the build.
We are murder hobos. Gaining more damage and defense is something we will do regardless of what system is in place.
But how we murder? The skills we use? Those are the important part. I want attributes to tie into that in a way unseen in games these days because they are so integral to the entire genre.
Itâs not a change for the sake of change idea, but a change because it could possibly be an incredibly positive change to build design.
Items with 3 or 4 base stats can have a place. They didnât really in D2 or D3. And not just a place but a build defining place.
Iâm actually going to suggest a system that pulls from many different games. Iâll try and throw a shout to that game when I do so.
Gold Sinks: I think a combination of gambling (D2 style) and what torchlight does would be pretty keen. In torchlight, sets and legendary items can appear in the shops for gold. They also sell healing pots, ID/TP scrolls, consumable âfishâ that change the appearance and abilities of your pet, and various gems that can be socketed into your gear. On top of that they sell âspellsâ which are basically new skills. You can have up to 3 equipped at a time. Finally, they sell dungeon maps, which open a random dungeon instance with 1-3 floors of things to fight and loot with a boss fight and treasure chest at the end of it. If I could basically buy random dungeons in D4 with gold, thatâd be a pretty good sink. You could also implement a system like POEâs one league where you made âFranken monstersâ out of dropped monster bits. Each monster bit you found added more power to the Franken boss and also modified the item drops from defeating it. If you made an NPC that sold these monster modifiers and you could build a boss to fight. Paying the fees would open a red portal to an arena where the fight would go down. This would introduce a lot of risk/reward choices. Do I make this boss drop an additional legendary item, even if it adds Frenzy to the boss mechanics? If you make it too powerful, youâll die and lose all your loot. If you make it a cake-walk to kill, you wonât get as much loot.
Loot filters: I like what POE does in regards to loot filters. they have a website you can go on and customize your loot filter with different map icons and sounds that play when desired loot drops. If you could combine that with Sacred 2âs ability to vacuum loot all items that pass your filter, thatâd be pretty awesome. Adding to the mayhem would be the chest system from Dragon Fang Z. In that game, unidentified âchestsâ drop and you then can put your items into them. They hold anywhere from 3-6 items (from what Iâve seen so far anyways), and do anything from ID the items inside, to sending contained items to your stash, to converting contained items to gold, to re-rolling items with a different set of stats. Within the diablo gameplay universe and mechanics, the possibilities are pretty endless.
Crafting: I really think that the correct crafting is deterministic crafting. I like POEâs system of finding a good base rare and adding to it. But they are too random about it and there is just way too much to learn. I miss D2âs crafting where youâd find a base item, a jewel, a gem, and a rune. Either way, Iâd like to be able to at least have an inkling about what Iâm getting. IE: If you take a body armor with 3 sockets, all resists, and life, you could use a crafting rune to add one of three effects to it. Area damage, bleed, or magic find. at least then I know that if I use that particular crafting rune, Iâll get one of those three things. Iâd much prefer a system like that than a completely random fuster cluck. Even if itâs not a 1 in 3 like in minecraftâs enchanting, Iâd much prefer if a crafting option said something like "Crafts a rare ring that will include the modifier âincreased attack speedâ than like in D3 where all you get is a lvl 70 rare ring with a random assortment of (mostly crappy) stats.