Is skill trees okay for D4?

From what I can see most are referring to skill trees. I support more freedom in that area as long as reasonable conditions are met like actually having to use and progress a skill. But passive skill selections in an rpg. No they should have a tangible cost to respec to maintain character integrity. RPG characters should not be a constant experiment in a sandbox environment.

Other RPG’s have depth and finite scaling that allows more viable builds to exist, and let’s the player adapt to conditions rather than morphing into something completely different to handle different content.

I am not opposed to characters completely changing builds but I believe it should be a process, not a skin to be worn and changed at a whim.

4 Likes

I like Diablo IIIs skill system. It’s flaws were in it’s itemization. ONE thing I might consider changing was the “elemental” types of the different runes. What if you could pick the elemental type of your chosen rune? It seems to me if I want to build a Lightning whirlwind build, let me.

If I I want a Frozen explosive blast build with Chain Reaction, let me do that.

In what context, out of curiosity? If we return to the issue of balance in Vanilla D3…it’s basically a generic issue that any arpg is going to have where certain skill runes just “make sense” to use together because neither the skill runes/gear offered alternative playstyles other than that crit for infinite resource meta(speaking from a Barb PoV btw). That kind of issue is partially due to incompetence on Blizzard’s side, but it’s ultimately always going to arise in arpg’s until they arbitrarily buff a skill to do a noticeably higher amount of damage to combat that level of speed/efficiency.

If we’re talking RoS…yeah removing the multipliers makes sense based on the logic of generic ridiculous power creep we have now…but ultimately then the legendaries and sets are just going to basically be the exact same purpose as skill runes at that point…you just have more “options” now. It genuinely felt like a bandaid fix to me, and in reality they should’ve offered the ability to pick more than 1 skill rune built in the UI instead of the “lazy” option of slapping it on gear.

The only way you’re going to inspire people do use different skills that aren’t “meta” is because the game rewards the amount of effort you put into certain skills more than the skills that aren’t leveled up more or less(and preferably on a different xp table than your generic level). This is what PoE does in a different format, and what I personally think Last Epoch is doing best(though maybe it’s a bit early to be overly praising that game).

I can’t speak for everyone, however my preference of respec is something akin to Diablo 2’s system, whereas a single character can respec freely a few times only. Afterwards, should they want to respec further, they would have use an item (token), which they could either grind the materials for it or trade for it.

3 Likes

The positive side of it, is that it is at the core a negative that players must struggle with. that’s what these “nerd games” are through and through. the player is constantly facing opposition and hardship, and having to make choices, and sacrifice things, and it is the experience of that hardship and the outcomes of those choices that make the games fun. This could range from the death of a character, to spending your last 50 bucks on a potion to restore life. the more thinking that is required about more hardship the more interesting the game likely was.

now.

This is not to say that a ban on respecs is the best way to do things not at all…
It’s more to say that:

…completely free respecs is virtually guaranteed NOT to be the best way to do things.

because it is a reflection of zero choice, zero consequence, and zero commitment, to the point that the lock in of configs during greater rifts and the limitations on passives and skill slots on the hotbar, are enjoyable, because they are rare beyond words snippets of the above mentioned core of tension…

its just unfortunate that through the ineptitude of the “D3 game director” of whatever year, that these elements of tension and commitment are the sporadic exception instead of the rule…

2 Likes

Okay, what if you had a load out of 3 different builds then?

You can switch between those 3 as you want, but if you want to change one of the 3 builds, you’ll have to pay a sum of whatever currency that seems appropriate.

Thus retaining the switching between builds, but also limiting it within that number.

I have no problem with skill trees, especially if they branch well. Just…don’t go all PoE with it. For the love of god PoE’s skill tree is too big for its own good. It can create very very good builds, especially hybrid builds, but unless you’ve got a planning site bookmarked, you’re going to very likely fall into the trap where you are overwhelmed and end up creating a build that seems haphazardly put together.

There’s D3’s “skill tree” on one end and PoE’s on the other end. If we get skill trees again, we want them to be in between those two extremes.

4 Likes

Load out is a word that should be just as offensive as Immortal to Diablo fans. Essentially it’s purpose is to bypass any kind of immersive experience requiring thought. This example would still make a mockery out of character integrity, regardless of cost.

3 Likes

Pretty much the tldr; on my feelings(and hopefully a lot of people)

Yeah, but maybe this is kind of offtopic…it’s probably not an unheard of type of suggestion either because it’s what WoW does. A lot of people here come from WoW, and we literally probably have at least one “idea” from WoW we all wish we had in a Diablo game…and more important we all have a different opinion on what aspects of WoW we enjoy because WoW has so many different aspects to it, and unfortunately D3 doesn’t.

For me(in regards to Grifts vs M+ in WoW) I’d definitely love a more dungeon esque aspect to Grifts that both inspire A) “Forced” group play to beat the Grift B) Strategy/skill in beating the trash C) Actual bosses and D) new gimmicks unlocked at certain difficulties to artificially cap how far you can progress difficulty wise. This is because that’s more or less my favorite aspect of WoW from over the years(dungeons).

That said, I’m not naive and would never “expect” M+ to make its way into a D4 lol.

That is something I don’t want to see in Diablo 4, being forced to group up just to clear content.

5 Likes

And because they can do both just leads to massive power creep over what is already in D3

1 Like

Nor would I ever expect it. It’s just my own dumb, personal opinion…but I guess where I’m coming from is how D3 pressures you to get into groups to “mindlessly” grind content…but when I grind mindless content in arpg’s I generally want music/tv/twitch distractions, and then I want arbitrary “breaks” to get me through it and generally going at my own pace instead of keeping up with the group. TLDR; if the content is mindless grinding, I want to be alone.

If you’re going to pressure me into grouping, I’d rather it be a genuine MMO dungeon type experience(and more it’s something you only feel obligated to do occasionally)…but again I feel the need to iterate I would really never expect D4 to go in such a direction unless they basically turn it into a pseudo WoW 2.0 instead of D4(I dunno copy Lost Ark Online or something to that effect). That probably has its own awful ramifications to the arpg community.

How is this a positive? At the end of the day, you just want to force all players to have to deal with a bad mechanic, when it is something that you can easily enforce on yourself if you want.

Having a bad build already has a huge negative: your character will perform worse. There is no need to add having to restart a character from scratch.

1 Like

It’s a positive because its an aspect of challenge, and a point of substance that requires thought and commitment.
These kinds of games are not supposed to be big rubbery ball pits of safety and comfort and convenience.

That’s how you end up with this new incoming little tippy-tap phone game.
It all starts by the idea of consequence leaving a bad after taste in your mouth…

You don’t dump all the booze out because the dumb little kiddie can’t stomach 1 shot…You tell the little invalid to scamper off to bed and quit bothering the adults.

I dont want to “force” uncomfortable players to do anything, I would want them to just go away forever and never return, and quit watering down Diablo, although its several years to late for that sadly…

3 Likes

I cannot self enforce if a game is designed around the idea that swapping gear and skills on a dime is normal and acceptable. Not that self enforcing is really the same anyway. Its an rpg. The idea is that you must make trade offs and live with them to a certain extent. You don’t just start the round with a sniper rifle and then pick up a sub machine gun when you feel like it better suits your needs.

4 Likes

I do want to see D4 focus more on skills than gear. And i also think that being able to respec characters is an essential part of the game unless they choose to give us more than 15-17 character slots.

But there should be a cost involved for changing specs, it should not be as simple as going to the armory and changing it. But it should not be something that we would need to grind a week for to collect enough of whatever the cost is to respec one time. They need to find a balance.

And we all know that within a few weeks to a month of launch there will likely be a D4Planner to use to plan builds so its not like we are running blind.

2 Likes

Skill trees in some form are essential in D4, and respecs should be severely limited and cost resources. I am happy with paying to tweak a few points here and there, but to rebuild your character from the ground up you should need to reroll. No more D3 infinite free respec garbage where you completely change your build by juggling around your hotkeys and putting on a new pair of pants.

Interesting fact, if you are pro easy respeccing, then logically you are against “seasons”.
That is, if your position is “I shouldn’t have to reroll my character just to experience a new build”, then logically your position is also “I shouldn’t have to reroll my character just to experience new seasonal content”.

2 Likes

Want a speed farming character in a game with limited or no respecs. That is easy just use a different character. That is what players do all of the time in games like PoE. In games like that one it isn’t about one character that can do it all. Fine if the game in question has only a few character slots.

I wouldn’t call a game like PoE outdated. Sure they have orbs of regret, but it would take a whole lot of them to give a full respec if you wanted to try out a different build.

Also it is not as hard on the player as you think it is. Holding a person’s hand by giving them free an unlimited respecs isn’t the answer either. It is not as punishing as you think it is. Players are not some dummies or young children that cannot figure things out without having someone hold their hands.

The potential problem with Johnny on the Spot respecs is that a lot of players will feel that their characters are just a collection of skills.

They see them as playing a certain role, which is the build they are playing with that character. Then the more serious RP’er will even go into how that character would act and talk in that world.

I hate saying it but D2 had to go that way. If they made all skills do about the same damage and have the same survivability. Then you would have some skills that would be way OP’d early on that would feel like they are getting weaker as you level up instead of getting stronger. There was no other game out there like D2 to give them inspiration to do it differently either.

Not if you have enough character slots to have different characters for different things. Instead of the approach of having all characters as Jacks of all trades and masters of none. You can have different characters for different things. Some could be built for the sole purposes of farming. While others can be you big time boss killers. This is what games like PoE has to offer.

No.
Wanting to be able to respec your character’s build has little to no correspondence on whether a person is against season or not. Players should be able to respec if they so choose, simple as that. It doesn’t need to be anything “easy” or “free”. Only something that’s available to all players if they put the effort into it.

1 Like

With free Johnny on the spot respecs players might feel like classes are just a collection of skills. Where there is a need to be a Jack of all Trades and a master of none with every character that you make.

Interesting way of looking at it. I think that others might see classes as a collection of skills if D3’s respecing is tied to skill trees.

Don’t need a planning site bookmarked to plan out builds. I just use Path of Building character planner. I don’t even need to have my browser open at all.

I have been watching a few videos recently and I will see just how far I can get in paragon and how good my gear can be playing solo during this coming season. I do know that I will be playing for much longer than I usually play a season for.

Games that focus on having fun playing with other people will always have better rewards for playing with others. The big thing is though it shouldn’t be so bad where you feel that the only way to play is to play with others.