Is skill trees okay for D4?

[ShadowAegis-1537]

I would say that skill trees will be fine if they design them correctly. While they have their disadvantages they have advantages as well.

To me they have a few more advantages than disadvantages.

Skill trees will mean more character development. Instead of the gear making the build as it is in this game. It will be your choices with skill points that makes the build. Gear would only be needed to cover what you cannot cover with skill points. Gear is just to enhance the build.

Different tiers of gear can give you a variety of ways of gearing your character. With the possibility of alternative gear choices to gear your character that wouldn’t be so far off from the best that you would still have a viable build.

Skill trees give us a sense of making progress with the character itself instead of progressing gear.

We feel that connection to the character because we have invested those points. Instead of like how some feel about this game. Where our characters are just rag dolls all identical until you put gear on.

Now you will say that you must have Johnny on the Spot respecs. Not if it is done right. Most of us here are more than smart enough to figure things out. We don’t need daddy devs holding our hands.

Besides there is nothing wrong with making some mistakes on your first couple of builds. That is how we learn. We learn by making mistakes.

Don’t think that skill trees means that the game will be too confusing. No it won’t, not even PoE’s passive skill tree is as bad as some here might think. When you learn the basics of what makes a good build in that game then the passive skill tree becomes a friend instead of an overwhelming enemy.

With the community we have here that can move over to D4 would mean that we might even get a few good planning tools that could be used to plan out our builds. Something similar to Path of Building for PoE, but instead it would be for D4.

You can see how I feel about skill trees. I want to see how the rest of you feel about skill trees.

[Caladon-1291]

I would much rather see a skill tree system in d4 over stupidly inflated item buffs, our power and ability should be tied to our character, Not the pretty clothes we wear.

I would also like there to be advantages/disadvantages in the class we choose, not just a cookie cutter build system.

[Bovie-1787]

Well, I have mostly always liked them. Both WOW and Diablo.

I do believe that POE is a little bit stingy about re-specing though, considering the size of the tree. I would prefer not to have to re-create characters because I muffed up the first one, I just as soon fix it at some type of cost.

I think the trees need to be re-invented. Something akin to runewords.
Each rune found or crafted is a complete word, prefix or suffix. You create your own skill tree from self created runeword combinations.
Like ‘Cleave’ could be a generator or a spender. Same with all parameters of prefixes and suffixes. Let the players create their own skill trees.

[Waynedetta-2220]

A Skill Tree is just a simple progression system that yields choices between incremental powerups for each skillpoint earned. The game needs more pogression systems that offer choices, it doesn’t matter if it comes in the form of a skill tree or a more creative system but they are necessary to achieve a feeling of character progression.

@Bovie-1787

I do believe that POE is a little bit stingy about re-specing though, considering the size of the tree. I would prefer not to have to re-create characters because I muffed up the first one, I just as soon fix it at some type of cost.

In PoE you can use orbs of regrett to respecc which is a percetly fine system since you get like 30 to 40 free resetpoints via quests and orbs of regrett can be found and bought ingame. I think PoE solved that problem quite good, adding a cost to respeccing makes choices more meaningful. If you can constantly swap between everything its not really a choice because you never really settle on a certain option.

And no I’am not huge fan of poe but the game has some good systems.

[naksiloth-1354]

I’ll be fine with a full blown skill tree where you allocate points to all related skills of one class 'till you reach endgame. Not all skills have to be amped up to 20 or 50 with softcaps for prolonged gameplay but certain ones can be hardcapped on low 3-4 level scale where you unlock other traits by meeting required conditions. I’d appreciate minimalism yet I’d like to be involved into the system to put some thought in it as a player for planning my journey.

[clueso-2790]

@ShadowAegis-1537

I would say that skill trees will be fine if they design them correctly.

Skill Trees done right means that they are like in Last Epoch where they have Skill-specific Skill Trees with Skill-specific Points that can only be spend into perks/talents/passive improvements for that specific skill.

@ShadowAegis-1537

While they have their disadvantages they have advantages as well.

A Skill-specific Skill Tree like in Last Epoch has no disadvantages.

It even has D3’s rune system integrated into it. There are skill changing effects that completely alter how a skill works that you can unlock by spending points into them. And then there are also generic things like ‘Increased Damage’, ‘Reduced Resource Costs’, ‘Increased AoE’, ‘Reduced Cooldown’, etc…

It is basically perfect.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Skill trees will mean more character development. Instead of the gear making the build as it is in this game. It will be your choices with skill points that makes the build. Gear would only be needed to cover what you cannot cover with skill points. Gear is just to enhance the build.

Different tiers of gear can give you a variety of ways of gearing your character. With the possibility of alternative gear choices to gear your character that wouldn’t be so far off from the best that you would still have a viable build.

The lack of a skill tree and skill points was not was reduceing build and item diversity in Diablo 3 (and neither was the fact that all skills are based on weapon damage btw).

What caused this lack of build and item diversity were the massively overpowered set and legendary items that only buff one or a few specific skills which funneled everyone into the same builds.

That means even if you had a skill tree, but also items like in D3, you would end up with a lack of build and item diversity anyway.

If you there would be a weapon that increases your Whirlwind damage by 800% and you choose not to use it, your Whirlwind attack would suck regardless if it is like D3’s rune system or if you have maxed out the skill in a skill tree. In other words, you still would be dependent on gear, even if there would be a skill tree.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Skill trees give us a sense of making progress with the character itself instead of progressing gear.

Why not both?

@ShadowAegis-1537

Now you will say that you must have Johnny on the Spot respecs. Not if it is done right. Most of us here are more than smart enough to figure things out. We don’t need daddy devs holding our hands.

Limited respecs/respecs that consume a resource are fine.

@ShadowAegis-1537

You can see how I feel about skill trees. I want to see how the rest of you feel about skill trees.

As I said: nothings beats Last Epoch’s Skill-specific Skill Trees.

It is a 100 times better than both D2’s point based skill tree or D3’s rune system.

Last Epoch action RPG Gameplay Demo Review (Kickstarter)

It could be adjusted for D4 to somehow look and work like this:

_~Imgur: The magic of the Internet
_~Imgur: The magic of the Internet

===============================

For Passive Skills I would like to see something like the Trait System that they alraedy had in D3 but removed before the beta started, which were basically passive skills in which you could spend points into.

Or something like this:
_~Imgur: The magic of the Internet

[Kauzmiq-1327]

@ShadowAegis-1537

With the community we have here that can move over to D4 would mean that we might even get a few good planning tools that could be used to plan out our builds. Something similar to Path of Building for PoE, but instead it would be for D4.

I still find it funny how the community thinks D4 is in making when blizzard just says “We are working on serveral diablo projects”. Might be D4, might not be, it literally could be anything. There was no official announcement of D4 in making. For all we know its all just expansions for D3. IMO blizzard should just focus on improving D3.

[Oblivion-1520]

I would have no problem with a skill tree system as long as you can respec.

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@clueso-2790

If you there would be a weapon that increases your Whirlwind damage by 800% and you choose not to use it, your Whirlwind attack would suck regardless if it is like D3’s rune system or if you have maxed out the skill in a skill tree. In other words, you still would be dependent on gear, even if there would be a skill tree.

I am saying that instead of the gear making the build the power is with the character. Then the chances of having gear that will boost damage that high is highly unlikely. No need for an item to do it when you have skill points that can give a nice boost.

@clueso-2790

Why not both?

I am talking about moving away from gear making the build. That type of gear progression can stay here with D3.

I do like Last Epoch’s skill system as well.

@Kauzmiq-1327

I still find it funny how the community thinks D4 is in making when blizzard just says “We are working on serveral diablo projects”. Might be D4, might not be, it literally could be anything. There was no official announcement of D4 in making. For all we know its all just expansions for D3. IMO blizzard should just focus on improving D3.

They are not likely to be improving D3. This game is seven years old and if it were to get a second expansion it would’ve gotten one long time ago. They have written this game off as far as expansions goes. It is more profitable to focus on D4 and make it the game that this one should’ve been.

[Aspirine-2366]

A good one yes, not like the insane one in PoE that looks like a great one but is not.
But also not like the D3 one(lol which one) , just pick and choose from all arpgs out there and finetune for D4.

[clueso-2790]

@ShadowAegis-1537

If you there would be a weapon that increases your Whirlwind damage by 800% and you choose not to use it, your Whirlwind attack would suck regardless if it is like D3’s rune system or if you have maxed out the skill in a skill tree. In other words, you still would be dependent on gear, even if there would be a skill tree.

I am saying that instead of the gear making the build the power is with the character.

I agree that more damage should come from your character and the skills themself, preferably ~50% of a skills total damage should come from the skill itself as innate damge, regardless of if you are wearing a weapon or not and ~50% of the skills total damage should come from the weapon.

Both for spells and weapon based attacks imo.

https://imgur.com/mfd7fzi
https://imgur.com/6ZTR6Fp
https://imgur.com/t58K6xK

@ShadowAegis-1537

Then the chances of having gear that will boost damage that high is highly unlikely. No need for an item to do it when you have skill points that can give a nice boost.

Right, it becomes less likely, but it is not a guarantee, especially if there are affixes that are multiplicative with the damage from your skills (which would increase the more points you spend into them).

@ShadowAegis-1537

Why not both?

I am talking about moving away from gear making the build. That type of gear progression can stay here with D3.

I understand and I agree. My point is that a skill tree does not exclude to have an itemization like in D3.

I dislike D3’s itemization as well.

[Jaros-21723]

@clueso-2790

It could be adjusted for D4 to somehow look and work like this:

~Imgur: The magic of the Internet
~Imgur: The magic of the Internet

===============================

For Passive Skills I would like to see something like the Trait System that they alraedy had in D3 but removed before the beta started, which were basically passive skills in which you could spend points into.

Or something like this:
~Imgur: The magic of the Internet

Awesome ideas that I really like. +1

Regarding Last Epoch’s skill tree, trait system/skill system I agree. It feels very cool and diverse. Would really like something like that in D4.

https://imgur.com/mfd7fzi
https://imgur.com/6ZTR6Fp
https://imgur.com/t58K6xK

This combined damage looks very interesting too. +1

Only problem is if Blizzard decides to go OMGWTFBBQ numbers again in D4 then the numbers of second damage portion will not be enough. So we either need an ability to augment them somehow or just better balance.

Also, if D4 will have something like greater rifts things might be harder with the second portion of damage.

[Gilthas-1277]

Not sure why people keep trying to pass off the lack of respeccing as some kind of good feature when it has no positive side to it.

People that don’t want respeccing aren’t looking to make choices more meaningful, they only want to make it harder for other people to try out their special snowflake builds or just want to lord it over people that do make a mistake.

You don’t need to have to restart your character to learn from your mistakes either, you learn by seeing that what you’re doing is wrong, and then trying something else. Having to restart your character every time you want to test something new is a huge waste of time and limits creativity.

As for skill trees, I don’t care much, but I hate it when you have to spend points on an undesireable node just to reach the node you want. I also find “+X levels to node Y” gear affixes to be pretty boring. I’d rather have gear that gives special effects.

[Smash-2191]

I always loved Titan Quests mastery system. A huge skilltree within a given theme, which could simply be a class in Diablo 4. Of course it would have to be somewhat multilayered and with multiple different options to make build diversity a thing.

I want the rune system to be gone.

[Noodles-22629]

The system that the in-development game Last Epoch uses for skill points seems very good. Where each skill has it’s own skill-tree that can be used to customise the function of the skill.
I wouldn’t mind if they’ve ‘borrowed’ that idea for D4.

[KiWeN-1431]

I feel this is how we all expected skill trees to work in D3 at the begining. Sadly they didn’t tap in to that part.

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@Gilthas-1277

Not sure why people keep trying to pass off the lack of respeccing as some kind of good feature when it has no positive side to it.

You have to try to understand their line of reasoning. It might not make full sense to you but it does to them and it isn’t necessarily wrong either.

To them permanent choices are meaningful. Permanent choices makes the characters they make more real to them. To them it is like real life, in real life there isn’t any do overs. Where ops should’ve spent my time getting a different degree. Now I am saddled with student loan debt that I will have to pay off before I can get a different degree that will lead to an even better job.

No permanent choices means that the character is just a collection of skills that can be whisked away at the touch of a button. That is not good in their eyes.

@Gilthas-1277

People that don’t want respeccing aren’t looking to make choices more meaningful, they only want to make it harder for other people to try out their special snowflake builds or just want to lord it over people that do make a mistake.

There is no secret hidden agenda to make others look bad. In fact just the opposite. These ones would love to have a game with skill trees where all skills are useful. Sure you can still make mistakes which is part of being human. Come on I am sure that you are the type of person that is more than strong enough to laugh at some of your own dumb mistakes.

@Gilthas-1277

You don’t need to have to restart your character to learn from your mistakes either, you learn by seeing that what you’re doing is wrong, and then trying something else. Having to restart your character every time you want to test something new is a huge waste of time and limits creativity.

This depends on when the mistake was made. If it is early in the leveling then the amount of time lost is meaningless. But later on then you have a point.

@Gilthas-1277

As for skill trees, I don’t care much, but I hate it when you have to spend points on an undesireable node just to reach the node you want. I also find “+X levels to node Y” gear affixes to be pretty boring. I’d rather have gear that gives special effects.

In PoE’s huge passive skill tree there is no undesirable nodes. Sure a few niche builds might not get the full advantage of a node but it doesn’t make it undesirable. Why even the smaller nodes give stats which is very useful for stat requirements.

Affixes on gear doesn’t necessarily have to be +skill levels. Sure you might have a few affixes similar to them but still there can be other useful ways of boosting a skills affects without having all of the affixes like that.

@KiWeN-1431

I feel this is how we all expected skill trees to work in D3 at the begining. Sadly they didn’t tap in to that part.

Yes I would’ve loved to see D3 be the game that vastly improved on D2’s skill trees. Where D3 would’ve redefined how skill trees are made. Sadly that ship has already sailed.

[Noodles-22629]

We can have both, skill trees with an easy respec. I personally prefer an easy respec over a more permanent investment. Skill trees are OK but we would need to get about 10 skill points or more per level, 1 point per level like D2 had is too limiting and shallow for good build progression and customisation.

[Kirottu-2131]

I think respeccing should either be free or have somewhat small cost. Players should not be penalized for experimenting with builds. Without respec if a player makes a poor choice, the character essentially becomes ruined.

Being locked with one build per character is not very appealing.

[Cobaltus-1135]

@ShadowAegis-1537

To them permanent choices are meaningful. Permanent choices makes the characters they make more real to them. To them it is like real life, in real life there isn’t any do overs.

I understand that, but I already have real life for when I want to deal with real life constraints. I don’t want those carrying over into my video games, too. That’s especially true when one doesn’t have unlimited character slots (or unlimited time) for experimenting with wildly different skill allocations.

The fact that D2 effectively (not absolutely) locks you into whatever points you allocate for stats and skills is a huge factor in me not being able to enjoy the game now as much as I once did. D3’s system feels so incredibly liberating and flexible in comparison that if D4 reverts back to a D2-like system, I’ll probably just pass on it.