That Wudijo video is misleading. He says GoD DH is still going to be good for solo speed farming, and I agree. However, for solo GR pushing, the nerfed GoD DH is pretty bad; worst among all classes.
Wudijo’s website, Maxroll.gg, even has Demon Hunter as the ONLY class without an A or S tier build for solo GRs. Check their solo tier list for season 23 to see for yourself.
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I don’t like these quotes:
“You have much more raw DPS.”
You actually have ~50% more raw dps, or 2.5GRs more raw dps without taking into consideration the other item swaps.
“There is no bane of the stricken on this, so you kill the boss in a reasonable time on pushing tiers no matter what.”
Any build could have one of its item nerfed about 10.5GRs, then be given a 2.5GR buff, and no longer need to use stricken. Let’s say I took UE6 Multishot into a GR119, but instead I used Bane of the Powerful, do you think I couldn’t kill the boss without stricken? Do you think it’ll feel much different than a GR127 with Stricken? Maybe he is factoring in the Squirts and Odyssey’s End bonuses that he mentions later on in the video – but he makes a very strong statement about boss fights being easier, yet the build is doing many GRs less in push, even without missile dampening.
DH is actually the number #1 solo exp build in the game.
Granted the Solo Exp Rankings is a new category we’re now focusing on, I do not think that GoD6 is 100% the best – yet. I have done some solo GR120 runs on PTR with both GoD6 and LoN Bomb and they are very close at under 3:00 with good pylon placement/sequence. My friend, who was 2900 paragon, was able to do GR115 in under 3 min with his completely different LoN bomb setup. So I think more feedback from other builds must be collected and assessed before we can place the crown on GoD6. Again, MaxRoll is pioneering the rankings for this new category of builds which is very good for the community – we have to start somewhere.
He predicts Odyssey’s End as a possible savior for GoD6. I hope it is, but I got my doubts because area damage is still very much an important part of GR pushing, even with 4 pierces. Just as area damage is an important part of pushing with S6 Impale. We forfeit area damage, valla’s extra projectiles AND displaced attacks for partial squirts uptime and odyssey’s buff. My prediction is that it’ll be a wash.
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Exactly.
And on top of that, trapped will be problem on RG. With my 100+ keys test on PTR on GR137 and GR138 with trapped:
ht tp://data.mlok.net/PTR_GR138.jpg
-> it was beginning to be a problem with RG at GR138 (GR137 about 3 min., GR138 about 3,5min.).
With 3->4 pierce limit buff it will be +2GR higher and it will be problem on RG for sure at GR140.
And after testing many variant I always ended (on PTR) with Vallas and max AD. Squirt is good for Shield pylon and for RG.
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More pierces please – at least 5-10, bring it into “A-Tier”
maxroll.gg / tierlists / solo-tierlist
The Missile Damping issue probably wouldn’t even show up at 10 pierces so why is it being cut so low???
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Because the goal was nerf GoD for sure. MD was only excuse.
With all due respect to Wudijo, 4 pierces is NOT enough, they could at least bump it up a little more.
The Crusader AoV shield at least got a 10 cap and it’s still and S-Teir build. I view these two as similar issues, caps to fix the infinite scaling problem. Only GoD got nerfed way too hard.
I would be satisfied with 5 pierce (4 -> 5 is +2 more GR). Even 5 it would be big nerf from live, but for me acceptable.
But I am glad with one mentioned think. After nerf it will be much less fishing during Push. Push GR150 NS live - I didn’t enjoy it at all with 500+ keys (fish for perfect conduit at perfect festering + good next 2 levels + power at RG + 1 MD).
Just to put things into perspective.
GR133 right now on live, with an the Ess of Johan amulet worn… and no pylon, a single target Rift Guardian took me exactly 4:00. I did not use Wolf Companion.
So with a set bonus of 15,000%, the exact same setup would take 2:40, which is very close to what a GR141 guardian clear looks like on live with stricken.
Unfortunately, post-patch we’re at GR137 with 4 pierces. Nobody can sell me that this change is positive for the class, it’s a straight up donkey nerf.
I prefer GoD6 as an AD powerhouse, the Hungering Arrow pierce cap felt like crap with 3 pierces and it certainly won’t feel very different with 4.
In retrospect, they should have done something like this…
Hungering Arrow
Fire a magically imbued arrow that seeks out enemies for 155% weapon damage and has a 35% chance to pierce through them. Hungering Arrow can only pierce up to 10 times.
Hungering Arrow: Devouring Arrow
Increases the maximum pierces to 30. Each consecutive pierce decreases the damage of the arrow by 5%. Hungering Arrow’s damage turns into Cold.
So it would essentially turn to 0 damage after 30 pierces. The other runes would be more consistent.
155%->150%->145%->140%->135%…
But since this patch is a giant free-for-all… let Hungering Arrow excel at single target by upping the set bonus to 25,000%. Let it become an RGK.
It can reign supreme in the solo/group exp metas, clear a solo GR140 at 5k paragon and be a decent choice in the group meta as RGK.
We can go along with Wudijo’s Odyssey End hypothesis and replace the zDH role in group meta. Because 25,000% makes it lethal in single target. That GR133 solo kill would take 1 minute and with the proper attire 20-30 seconds, the GR 140 boss would take 90 seconds without stricken. it will raise the bar for other DH builds when the time comes to buff them. I look forward to seeing other trash clearing contenders in 2.7.1.
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I assume this is without Stricken, right?
With Stricken, you won’t see a 1/3 reduction in kill time from a 1/3 increase in damage.
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If we assume 4:00 min kill at roughly 2 stricken stacks per second with 2% per stack, that’s 480 stacks which results in the multiplier +960% which is 10.6x. Since the damage ramps up linearly, we can integrate to approximate the total damage dealt.
If the base damage per second is 1, then throughout the 4:00 min (with the time-average multiplier of 5.8x), we dealt about 5.8*240 = 1392 damage. This amount is essentially the total boss HP.
Now, if we assume an additional 1.5x damage from the GoD6 buff (10,000% to 15,000%), then the goal is still to attain 1392 damage, but it will be quicker. We can divide the final amount 1392, by the 1.5x multiplier to get 928. Now the question becomes how long does it take to get to 928 damage with the same stricken stacking?
With a little algebra, we get the new time is about 192 seconds or about 25% faster (since the original time was 240 seconds). I also ignored the +25% since it’s multiplicative in both settings and won’t adjust the times.
So I agree with Rage that it’s not quite a 33% reduction in time, but rather about 20% reduction in time (which depends on stricken stacking speed and gem level).
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Yes, the 4:00 time on GR133 is 10,000% and without stricken. The Taeguk, Trapped, Simplicity combo.
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Ah okay, then it’s 33% without stricken.
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Same result here. I got the best results on PTR with the old setup and playstile.
Build up huge trash packs, whirl through it with Valla and AD.
Fot on DH and Ess on follower. Don’t like Ballista setup…
I hope Wudijo will be right with the Odyssey’s End setup, it would be a reward for the more demanding playstile.
Hmm, assuming the stacking rate and gem level are constant, I’m guessing the time reduction won’t really vary.
It does vary, if I replaced the 2% per stack to 1% per stack (or equivalently lowered stacks per second to 1), then 240 second time would be reduced to about 188.5 seconds or about a 22.5% reduction. If you keep going with reducing the number and potency of stacks, then the ratio converges to 33% which was the result w/o Stricken.
Well right, of course. A rank 150 Stricken is obviously better than a rank 25 one, and stacking 3x/second is obviously better than stacking 1x/second.
What I meant was that, if you aren’t changing the stacking speed and gem level between playing GR X and GR X+10 or whatever, I figured you wouldn’t see different results in that time reduction, whether the starting values were 3x/second and +2%/stack, or 1x/second and +1%/stack, as long as they were constant between those two trials.
But, actually you get relatively more bang for your buck with a lower level Stricken, because the lower the Stricken, the more closely your reduction in hits tracks the base damage increase. Of course, the absolute numbers end up being much larger- it takes more hits to kill the enemy with 2x the base damage, and no Stricken, than with 1x the base damage, and a Stricken even as low as 0.5%:
“100,000 damage to kill”
2% Stricken, base 100 dmg = 270 hits to kill
2% Stricken, base 200 dmg = 179 hits to kill, 33.7% reduction in hits
1% Stricken, base 100 dmg = 358 hits to kill
1% Stricken, base 200 dmg = 232 hits to kill, 35.2% reduction in hits
0.5% Stricken, base 100 dmg = 463 hits to kill
0.5% Stricken, base 200 dmg = 290 hits to kill, 37.4% reduction in hits
No Stricken, base 100 dmg = 1000 hits to kill
No Stricken, base 200 dmg = 500 hits to kill, 50% reduction in hits
Yes, I agree.
We basically have kill time as a function of stricken stacking speed*potency (combined as one variable potency per second), and base damage (per second). So with this function of 2 variables we can see how the kill time changes as we adjust one parameter at a time.
My point was if you kept the potency per second variable constant, than the base damage variable increase would of course lead to faster kill times. In my example, I used 1.5x base damage, in your example you use 2.0x. We then compare the ratio of kill times between base damage values.
However, as you turn the potency per second variable down (i.e. lower stricken level or less stacks per second), then that ratio of kill times between base damage values gets larger. This is the “relatively more bang for your buck with a lower level Stricken” you stated.
Lastly, here are the two extremes of this ratio:
Zero stricken potency: kill time reduction = 1 - (old base damage)/(new base damage)
Infinite stricken potency: kill time reduction = 1 - sqrt[(old base damage)/(new base damage)]
Thus, in your example of doubling the base damage. In the no stricken limit, we get the 50% you have. And in the infinite limit, we get about (1 - 1/sqrt(2)) ≈ 29%.
So yeah, we just were arguing the same thing loll.
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I just last night had an personal experience with why MD was so desired…my top S22 clear is 127 @ p1641…I’ve jumped to 1700ish now so I figured “let’s try and get a 130 before end of season.”
I was behind the timer a decent amount with crap first floor and it just seemed like I wasn’t doing enough damage…then got cathedral 2nd floor and spawned MD, but the only other elites I could drag had shielding and waller so I couldn’t get them down inside the bubble…then low and behold, a 2nd MD, but nowhere near any elites to drag in…I popped a condi at 98 but took me over half it to spawn RG, and ended up missing the timer by 12 seconds. (no power btw, i think I missed it somewhere)
Tried again…no MD, no power, no spawn at 98 and it was a 19min clear. Third try, no MD, got power, had condi on floor 1 that gave me a lead, but only had 90 secs when RG spawned so that one ended 20+ minutes…ugh.
Just a bit more damage and I think that first try would have gone down, but haven’t been close since…so yeah, TLDR - MD is crazy needed for pushing your limit regardless of para.
But I’m sure the de-nerf to 4 pierces will alleviate all that…
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A noobish question, would including the strafe to get the set bonus akin to the Wastes set be too broken, more intresting would be if you guys think it would be even more fun to play?