It’s not true. It’s not new meta. Meta is Most Effective Tactics Available but the tactics are constantly shifting. I’ve been playing and watching Brood wars played since the late 90’s and there has never been an all encompassing meta. Each game is different and people who rely on tactics to work a majority of the time get beaten regularly no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
Protoss vs Zerg - 11 years old ago:
Protoss does FFE opening following by corsairs.
Protoss Vs Zerg - 3 years ago:
Protoss does FFE opening following by corsairs.
Protoss Vs Zerg - 2 years ago
Protoss does FFE opening following by corsairs.
Protoss Vs Zerg - 6 months ago
Protoss does FFE opening following by corsairs.
So much for “constant shifting” when what I have seen 10 years ago still can be applied in today’s brood war PvZ matchup.
Teamliquid’s article & BroodWar’s videos > your words again.
Also, no matter how you try to spin it, the Brood War has meta.
That’s one of an almost unlimited number of different successful strategies not a meta. Go back and look at the other games in all those series and they’re different. If I wanted I could pick out dozens of basketball games won with a basket at the buzzer. Is that a meta too? Arguments from authority are just evasions.
My example has nothing to do with winning or losing, but more like that FFE is a solid and effective opening for Protoss Vs Zerg where zerg has to devise a proper counterplay instead of droning like a noob.
I watched most of the BW games are they aren’t much different. What I have seen in the BW last 10 years is still applied the same in today’s Brood War meta. Only you keep thinking that there are unlimited strategies that came out every month when there is barely anything new…unless you mean like “OMG, this zealot walks slower than other zealots. Amazing discovery. His opponent must have not seen this coming”.
And here is another Bo5 Protoss Vs Zerg:
and 3 games that Protoss using FFE against Zerg in the Best of 5. Even the unit composition that used by both team are pretty much same thru the Bo5.
So much for “constant shifting tactics”.
I can’t help but feel that StarCraft videos might be slightly unrelated to the subject of what would have happened if Diablo III had respec costs…
A bit. But then, if you could respec all your units in SC to something else, instantly and free, the whole game would fall apart. So maybe not that irrelevant.
And that would make it meta if there weren’t a dozen other equally valid strategies. Like if Diablo 3 had a wide variety of group compositions that were so nearly equally powerful there wouldn’t be a single almost universal four man meta for Diablo 3 each season.
No one has watched most of the BW games or even the tournaments. It’s played in dozens of countries each with it’s favored regional strategies.
id consider downloading the game
bc there would be some artificial sense of permanence
but since the actual game is just a scaler-salvage group play job, its just uninteresting for the solo player who doesn’t want to play meta.
I mean costs are good in diablo games, 2 had lots of them like your time for finding a rare item or time for figuring out a build. 3 has like no costs anywhere in the experience except getting kicked for not playing meta in a group, or the solo play experience since it has no rewards so the cost is fun over in solo play for d3.
How did this thread end up in Kilometer posting Starcraft games lol, thought most ppl were RPG background and not much into RTS stuff tbh
EDIT: Yipee post #1111
There are people literally casting Brood War games on youtube. There are enough videos to concluded which opening, build and style are used in those high-level plays.
Diablo 3 has meta. No one denies that.
Dozen? If there are other so-called equally valid strategies out there, why are the FFE opening for Protoss is the most used starts against zerg? The same goes for TvP as well where Terran always went for mecha vs Protoss, especially mass vultures, and not bio? Why would every race rush for fast expansion in every standard game? Can’t they beat their opponent with one base in standard play?
Just as TL’s article said:
The following builds are examples of a great strategic shift that forever changed the match-up and forced the opposing race to devise counter strategies or lose.
It’s not. You’re making an assumption. Also if it were meta it would be the best choice against any team and it isn’t. That’s what makes a meta is it’s the most effective strategy always. It’s the best choice not just sometimes and not just against certain people. If FFE was Meta no one would use any other strategy and they do, because there are counters.
Am I? Then explain why I keep stumbling at FFE opening when viewing high-level PvZ Brood War? The BW Bo5 youtube link I posted in previous posts ended up using FFE opening more than other so-called viable builds. If every strategy and opening are equal as you said, I would have seen at least 5 different openings in the Best of 5 in that video.
Here is another Protoss Vs Zerg Best of 5 matchup:
and Protoss did 5 FFE in that matchup
And here is another Bo5 Protoss Vs Zerg and guess what? 4 FFE opening for Protoss again.
Also, it seems that your definition of meta is different from me after all.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metagame
The game outside the game, the metagame is a concept that exists for all competitive games and can’t be easily defined in one sentence. Put simply, the metagame is the question of how everyone else is playing. If you know the answer, you can then tailor your own play to take advantage of their weakpoints.
The StarCraft metagame is about as evolved as a metagame can get. The metagame has gotten so intricate that good players can tell exactly where the other player’s base is simply by how long it takes for an enemy scouting unit to find them. The presence or absence of gas production buildings at certain points in the game can reveal volumes about a player’s strategy. And of course, feigning one tactic and going for another can have devastating metagame consequences.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=metagame
The highest level of strategy in many complex games, metagame refers to any aspect of strategy that involves thinking about what your opponent is thinking you are thinking.
Metagame comes into play in any game where no single strategy is dominant and opposing sides are aware of multiple strategies that can succeed dependent upon opponents’ actions. In order to perform at the highest level, it then becomes necessary to think about what your opponent thinks you will do (which may depend on what he thinks you think he thinks he will do, etc.) and to make decisions based on clues regarding what level they are thinking on.
In other words, Starcraft 1 has meta. Very different from what you claimed that SC1 has no meta.
No. Duh.
Why would anyone risk experimenting?
This whole “Does Brood War have a meta” discussion can be ended by asking for an example of a game that has serious levels of play and different factions/heroes/items/spells/classes etc which does not have a meta. Or otherwise all games are bad then.
I gave one. It’s Brood wars. There are others but why bother when the point is already proven?
That’s a great article. It defines any strategy and counter strategy as meta. Also it claims all unanticipated innovation is meta. Which is doubly stupid because innovation can’t be anticipated. That doesn’t help your cause. Your problem is you cannot prove FFE is the meta for brood wars because it isn’t. It’s just one of dozens of possibilities applying to a single aspect of the game. You can throw up a billion videos but until you can prove there is no other viable way to play it means nothing. It negates your premise. Meta is “if X then Y” not “if X then X, Y, Z, and Q” are equally valid. It’s right there in the root of the word. Meta transcends it doesn’t equal. Like I said you might as well claim chess has a meta.
What do you mean it didn’t help my case? It is totally helped me here. You said BW has no meta and I said BW has meta.
Here is the image of showing that BW has meta:
https://i.imgur.com/CiH5JS1.png
I wonder who has more credibility here. Those posters that actually playing Starcraft Brood War and posting in SC forums or a person who claimed that BW has no meta from the D3 forum. If BW has no meta, you wouldn’t see people bringing this up in their respective forums.
Also, maybe you should stop associating your MMO Meta term on the PVP and competitive game as well.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meta
- A term used in MMO meaning the Most Effective Tactic Available. It’s basically what works in a game regardless of what you wish would work.
As for your FFE statement, I thought the article I linked pretty much cleared it for you. FFE is an opening that forces your opponents to react or lose. I am simply telling you that BW has meta, and I used FFE as a primary example.
You’re dodging around the point. Is there more than one dominant strategy for any given situation? If there is it’s not meta. Any viable strategy forces you to react or lose. Are you seriously claiming any viable strategy is meta? Or do you think just sitting there wins games? So you propose we use a different definition that doesn’t apply to gaming at all? You’re going to need to back that up with something other than saying something that applies to an MMO doesn’t apply to other types of games.
I am not as I am simply proving to you that BW has meta.
Here is my post that claimed that BW has Meta.
You are the one who being denial and ignorant here who keeps saying that BW has no meta.
Instead of just admitting that you are wrong for your previous claim, you are now trying to find something to argue just to save face. My advice: Don’t bother.
Saying something doesn’t make it so. Meta in gaming is by definition the dominant strategy. You haven’t shown anything except there is at least one popular strategy for a particular situation which we already know. Now prove it’s the dominant strategy. Until you do that you’ve proved nothing about a meta.