If Significant Respec Costs Existed in D3

General Discussion
81

The question you have to ask here is “if it’s work in a Protoss versus Zerg match, does it work against Terrans too?”. If you do some research, you’ll see that move is called a staple in many different guides in a PvZ match indeed; but does it work against everyone? There can be a meta indeed but it won’t be an all-in-one model for a competitive game.
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Protoss_vs._Zerg_Guide

As of now, the most common is Forge Fast Expansion (abbreviated to Forge FE or just FE). Minor variants are two Gateways (2 Gate) and single base Tech.

82

He chose the example and it’s not meta. There is no meta for brood wars because there are always several ways of tackling any problem.

83

The highest level of strategy in many complex games, metagame refers to any aspect of strategy that involves thinking about what your opponent is thinking you are thinking.

Metagame comes into play in any game where no single strategy is dominant and opposing sides are aware of multiple strategies that can succeed dependent upon opponents' actions. In order to perform at the highest level, it then becomes necessary to think about what your opponent thinks you will do (which may depend on what he thinks you think he thinks he will do, etc.) and to make decisions based on clues regarding what level they are thinking on.

This term is most commonly used to refer to poker and other complex card games, but is increasingly being used in relation to video games with complicated player vs player elements and even traditional sports.

84

That’s just anticipating your opponents thinking. Urban dictionary accepts contributor submissions as definitions without checking them.

Here’s one that’s complete gibberish.

In essence, METAGAMING is playing the game with knowledge that you couldn't possibly have learned by playing the game (in other words, using knowledge that has been obtained from an outside source). Such additional knowledge could come from reading the plot, watching another player, or even interacting with the game's creators.
85

I am already proved in my previous post. Maybe you should give some reading instead of skimming it.

Here is the image showing that BW has meta:
https://i.imgur.com/CiH5JS1.png

If BW has no meta, why would anyone mention it in BW forums or Reddit? At this point, you just trying so hard to save face. Their words and actions> you. :slight_smile:

86

Again saying something doesn’t make it so. Even if someone else said it.

87

No, it’s exactly what meta game is.

You mean GTO - an optimal strategy that provides the best payoff for a player in a game.

For example in chess, from certain positions there is a 100% winning strategy aka 100% optimal strategy. This kills any meta game in itself since whatever the losing player does, it’s pointless.

88

Like exactly what you did now? :rofl:

It is hilarious to see that you starting to downplaying all those articles and evidence because it was against you. Such desperation.

Sorry, but those posters actually playing SC1, so their words have more weight than you did who is just a random poster that posting in the D3 forum.

89

Gran Turismo Omologato?

Yes the best strategy will become meta.

90

I’m not the one making the assertion there is a meta in Brood Wars without providing a valid example one. Words don’t have weight. Evidence has weight.

91

Well, you are the one who said that BW has no meta and I told you it has. I have presented so much evidence to you for that and not my fault that you chose to ignore it just to protect your non-existent face.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

Recently the term metagame has come to be used by PC Gaming shoutcasters to describe an emergent methodology that is a subset of the basic strategy necessary to play the game at a high level. The definitions of this term are varied but can include “pre-game” theory, behavior prediction, or “ad hoc strategy” depending on the game being played. An example of this would be in StarCraft where a player’s previous matches with the same opponent have given them insight into that player’s playstyle and may cause them to make certain decisions which would otherwise seem inferior.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/zn090/what_is_the_definition_of_metagame/

The ‘metagame’ is decisions made outside of the actual game.

It’s decisions that someone or a team makes based off of their understanding of either

  • A player or team’s tendencies.
  • The tendencies of players in general (like pushing is popular)

Pretty much the idea of a Metagame is that if you are playing against a certain team you will possibly draft a certain way. Like against Na’vi people were banning pudge. It doesn’t mean pudge is an imba hero, but simply this was a ban against Na’vi.

It also generally is used to mean what is currently popular. If pushing is popular than you will pay extra attention to banning strong pushing heroes, for example.

Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.

Now, when people talk about ‘metagame’ in Dota, they usually refer to how people pick and what kind of strategies they bring to games. Teams are always trying to outsmart others to get advantages. So, for example, if you know for sure that the opponent is doing a certain kind of laning and you counter it from the beginning, you’re metagaming him. If you want to think on SC2, if you know beforehand that your opponent is using an opening X, you’ll be metagaming him by using an opening that directly counter him.

Apparently, only you believed that meta means 100% sure kill tactic here.

92

What you presented isn’t evidence it’s other people’s opinions some of which actually contradict each other. Dominant not 100%.

93

Uhh wouldn’t this mean Diablo 3 doesn’t have a meta with respect to greater rifts? Or at all because eventually it all narrows down to paragon farming through greater rifts?

94

If I make a brawl build/character that no one can kill there won’t exist any meta game since it would be pointless what build you yourself make when we play.

If I make a defeatable brawl character there will be meta game during our battles.

The acronym META you give the meaning “most effective tactic available” doesn’t take into account the meta game aspect. It’s simply an acronym for most optimal strategy.

Regarding D3 GRs you surely have different tiers of builds - such that can do GR50 and such that can do GR150. If your goal is to reach higher GR then it would be optimal if you make one of the latter. This however won’t mean there is any meta game involved as long as the AI doesn’t adjust to the build you are using. As far as I know there isn’t something like this in D3 aka there isn’t any meta game in D3 PvE (there is only optimal strategy you refer to as META).

95

Specifically I’m referring to the most effective endgame strategy which is almost exclusively known as the “four man meta.” At any given time it’s the only possible most efficient strategy with very little variation. It adapts when the game itself changes but other than that it’s almost entirely constant. The acronym META I’m using is the one people are using here if they know it or not.

It confuses me. If true the alternate definition would undermine virtually all understanding of Diablo 3.

96

META is just an acronym. Changing 4 man meta to 4 man apples won’t make you new builds in D3. You can decide to call what’s optimal however you like. As long as the in-game AI doesn’t adjust to it, there isn’t any meta game between you and it involved.

97

So thousands of pages posted in these forums are wrong. Because the word is being used exactly the opposite of your definition when discussing the game.

98

It’s not wrong from the perspective of “most effective tactic available”. That’s not meta game however.

99

If that’s not what meta is the perspective is wrong. You cant define something as two completely contradictory things and both of them be right.

100

Look, if I say to you that apple in my language is “orange”, and you order apples by saying “oranges” in a restaurant, you won’t be surprised when you receive apples by the waitress I told the same, right?