I don’t really see a difference between you falling back behind rift bots in a game that is all about farming the same content over and over for paragon points and falling behind farming bots in a game that is all about farming the same content over and over for items. Why would you care about the economy if you aren’t trading? The drop rates don’t change in D2 because of the bots. But I’d argue the amount of paragon and rift infinity happened due to bots farming in D3.
Look, it’s the “if you don’t like it just don’t do it” argument. Again.
Here’s the boomer car analogy: when playing the economy or not is the difference between walking 100 miles or driving a car 100 miles, then it sucks. It’s unreasonable and I won’t do it.
Not to mention how quickly do you get spammed about buying crap from someone’s bots the moment you get on D2 ?
Game progression should be tied into playing the game not the economy. Having to learn the value of your items and protect against getting scammed and the time and effort it takes to do the actual trading to find the stuff you should have been able to find in the game to begin with is not fun and is a waste of time.
I just want to play a game, all that other stuff is chores.
There are plenty of other games for economy tycoons, please don’t make D4 another one.
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No it’s not because I don’t use that argument
I was making a comparison to show off double standards
You don’t seem to care how far behind you are in D3
I don’t care how far behind I am in D2
Both games don’t require bots to have fun or feel progression
But you are only calling out one because of some people doing stuff on the internet
And if he wants to catch up, he has to play the game.
And if you want to catch up, you can swipe a credit card on a third party website.
That’s the difference between a game without trading (you have to earn your own stuff) versus a game with trading (where your wallet determines how powerful you are).
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no because his argument was about bots
He doesn’t have to play in both scenarios
He has fun without bots being slow
So do I
And it didn’t and won’t crash the server either.
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My original post and the majority of my replies are about the economy existing at all, and the need to participate in it for my own progression. That is what I don’t like. The bots are one of several symptoms of that.
Vanilla D3 was like that and it was terrible. The D2 “endgame” is equally terrible. I hope D4 is not like that.
It’s just the same circular arguments over and over again at this point. Both “sides” of this debate can just reply with quotes of things that have already been said by now.
Well you know that this is false but you will return with your boomer car so…
The main difference between “just don’t use it” and “just don’t do it” is that trading isn’t content. You aren’t missing out of anything other than playtime if you don’t trade. But if I refuse to use overtuned joke items then I am missing out of a huge portion of the game if the game is built around these items. Or unbalanced skills. Potions are a better argument in D2 than trading. Trading is so easy to ignore. Play solo. But when cheese is built into the game and you see it everywhere in your inventory and your skilltree, it becomes a problem. Because you have to actively cut content from the product you paid for.
If they don’t drop from a specific source, but randomly from everything, you can’t really farm for it specifically. Just collecting them while doing other stuff.
That isn’t my worry.
It is more to strongly encourage people to do the key dungeons they find. Instead of handpicking the easiest ones.
Same reason making them character bound.
Kill fishing with fire.
I definitely want the keys and modifiers to be random.
I’d just make them impossible to massively stock up on. And disincentivize destroying keys or abandoning dungeons.
I hope keys can come from anywhere, to also make them less farmable, but maybe they should not come from key dungeons themselves. To incentivize playing varied content.
if people can’t stock them, they will instantly destroy the ones they don’t like
Making them able to do less key dungeons overall. That might be enough of a cost on its own. It isn’t in D3 since you can easily get lots of keys.
Might add a cost to destroying a key if it isn’t enough.
I would also throw a debuff at players if they leave a key dungeon. Like a “Coward debuff” or similar that makes you unable to do more key dungeons, or find more keys for x minutes. Might have done wonders for fishing in D3.
And ofcourse, you shouldn’t be able to fully tell of a key is good or bad for you, before entering.
Like if a key dungeon has maybe 3-4 modifiers in total (including the location) only the location and one of the modifiers might be shown on the key, with the others appearing after entering. So the danger and RNG element remains intact.
i dont see a difference between farming keys, not using the ones you dont like and only using the ones you like and farming keys, throwing away the ones you dont like and only using the ones you like
its literally the same thing with a messy bag
Difference to me is, if you find 5 keys while doing some overworld content, and you only want to do 3 of the keys, because of a modifier or location you don’t like for your build, if you throw those keys out to make room for others, you have less available keys overall, over time.
If you get to keep all dungeon keys forever after, after a month of not doing Fire Dungeon of Doom, because it is tough for your build, you can just respec to some anti-Fire dungeon of Doom build. And same for all the other various dungeons.
Allowing you to do all the keys you find, on easy mode, by respeccing for each after you have gathered a ton of keys for them.
(Which for anyone who has read any post by me on respeccing, might know, I dislike. Builds should have strengths and weaknesses and it should not be efficient to handpick the challenges that make us ignore our weaknesses. That makes the gameplay less interesting)
With a small limitation on keys you can hold at any time, and the cost of respeccing we know is there, you can’t do that. Then you have the choice between doing your best with your current build against the challenges the game offered you,. Or throw out keys and have less dungeons to do overall.
Maybe with some additional cost if that encouragement is not strong enough.
Players should overall be rewarded for doing challenging and diverse content, that might not be perfect for their build.
I am definitely not bound to the limited key concept, if something else can offer similar encouragement.
What about some sort of DR with drops as you get keys. Say the drop rates are about 5% over all. Once you get to 10 keys it drops to 4%, 15 keys 3% and so on making it harder and harder to find them. Mix that with DR for specific dungeons and specific affixes. Once you get one for 1 dungeon, your chances are less to find the same one, same for affixes.
Something like this should fix the fishing for easy ones while satisfying your encouraging players to do the keys they have.
Yeah, would accomplish some of the same. I kinda have the same issue as with respec costs being gold based. Inflation always win.
While a lowered % chance might be very effective in the short term, I am less certain it stays that way month after month, or if you just end up with so many keys it won’t matter that the droprate is reduced.
Hard caps can’t be overcome.
I like this, increasing the diversity in the keys you get.
Though wouldn’t you then have best chance for keep getting the key you want, if you only use that one key and keep all others? That might have the opposite effect?
But a mechanism that makes it harder to hoard a specific key dungeon/modifier for later is interesting.
How about a higher MF in key dungeons if you finish them within ~2 days of finding the key? 
Like an extra modifier.
To also encourage doing them as you go/not hoarding.
On a similar note: After finishing a key dungeon you get a MF bonus for doing (and finishing!) a key dungeon which shares no modifiers or location with the previous one. Or maybe the previous 2-3 keys.
Again rewarding people for doing diverse content.
Its crazy how many people on this forum don’t understand trade. This has nothing to do with learning the game what are you even talking about. Its trading resources for desired outcomes. You clearly don’t play D2 so I can’t really give you a great example because D3 has literally nothing of value to talk about with trading. F it we will use Rami Gifts. Or hell perfect Gems. Say you couldn’t cube perfect gems to change them to a different type. So say you had like 20 topaz but you want 20 perfect Emeralds. Its annoying to trying to grind those as the gems you get sort of random granted you can use items to effect drops. But what if you could make a post/game and trade somoene else your 20 Topaz for 20 Emeralds. Now you both trade gems you didn’t want for ones you did and come out ahead without wasting unnecessary time farming them.
LIke… how can it possible be this hard to understand basic trade?
This is one thing I am not understanding. Progression has no meaning to you on D3, but it means everything to you on D2. Everything on D2 on hell can be done without a meta build, without BIS gear, without ever playing a public game. You could play an entire season, beat Baal on hell easily, beat Ubers, farm anything you want. D3, end game is GR150. You would be very hard pressed to beat a solo GR150 in a season while never botting, zdps’ing for botters, or grinding 100s of hours.
Botting is cheating. It bothers me a ton in both games. Was BOA the answer to botting? Hell no. The only answer to botting is to ban the cheaters. I just find it funny that some can justify it for the game they like, but it is the devil in the game they do not like.
not necessarily.
You can swipe the CC on a third party website and be a D3 leader board topper too. Leader boards not important? You can still use those bots to farm bounties, rifts, lower augment gems. Whatever part of the game you do not want to/ have time for, and a lot of players do.
OP I am generally curious what you are afraid of losing with trading. Like… i’ve seen you post on these subs for years. I can look into your profile and see your not a “competitive” GR pusher. You literally made like every class last season with just generic builds we have all run hundreds of times. Yet somehow people being able to trade is going to impose on your play? Like ???
Just baffling really.
Well the DR on key drops would be just something built in so sure, as speed progresses during endgame, people can farm faster. But if someone had say 20 keys, for example, getting the 21st may seem impossible due to the DR.
Not really. You can’t avoid any kind of credit card warriors at most multiplayer games.
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