Well, I don’t think the dibs bonus will stay on Tribes. I think it’s just going to be the (far too small) multiplier. That will, at least, make it easy to update the build.
Nice clear Rage, the ending was cutting it close. On the edge of my seat!
Lol, the stuff that came out of my mouth from the moment I saw I had spawned Blighter to the second I killed him is definitely not fit for print!
thanks man for sorting that out. I’m still missing the old forum…
also for the advice on how to circumvent the problem when trying to post links.
Wow, ok, it turned out to be super complicated. One issue is that each animation for each skill appears to have a different interaction with whatever other skill comes after it. There’s some minor level of animation cancelling that seems to be happening basically all the time.
So for instance, if you cast EQ and immediately after that cast Slam, it’s about 45 frames (.75 seconds) from when you hit the EQ button to when you’re able to Slam.
But, if you cast EQ and immediately after cast Leap, it’s only about 30 frames (.5 seconds) from when you hit EQ to when you can use Leap.
I found the video of your GR 87 clear and watched the rotation you use. From that plus some experimenting on my own, it looks to me like it’s maybe possible to get an EQ on the ground roughly every .65 seconds, if you are good on the keys. That’s counting Leap, hard-cast EQ, WC, and TS.
With a regular Leapquake setup, once you factor in the additional quakes from TS, WC, and EQ, you end up with one every .81 seconds, approximately. So, the Lightning setup does apply quakes about 25% faster. On the other hand, Fire does 25% more damage per quake, and Phys has a ton of extra Slam damage.
You gain some damage via extra WOTB uptime from the huge CDR, but of course you have to drop a lot of other rolls to get all that CDR: probably a mix of AD, CHC or CHD, and STR, which probably outweighs the extra Insanity uptime. You also have to take Gogok (which a lot of people do anyway), rather than Zei’s.
In non-season, I’m not sure whether F+R / BoM / FoT would be better or worse than CoE / EW / BoM. The former is obviously more fishy. Or: rather than CoE, probably better to take RoRG + Crimson, as I think you mentioned.
All in all, an interesting setup! I have my doubts as to whether it’ll actually be quite as good as the standard setup, but I wouldn’t think it would be too far behind.
I may give playing it a try, and possibly add it to the guide at some point depending on how well it performs.
I thought they changed some of the criteria for trust level for D3 recently to make it more attainable. I’m shocked you are not TL3!
I heard that they had changed, but I’m not sure what they’ve changed to. I’ve never really pursued a higher trust level- I just read things that look interesting, post about things I know about, and answer questions when I’m able. And for all that, TL2 has been just fine.
There’s a rolling 100 day requirement for a minimum number of threads and posts read, and also likes given. They vastly reduced the number for threads / posts a while back. You might just need to give some likes out to posts to get your TL3. I think it’s 30 given in a rolling 100 day period.
Thanks, MB, good to know. I do often pretty much forget that the like button is there- I prefer to respond to somebody’s new PB clear with a “well done!” Or to an interesting topic with discussion of the ideas. But, no reason I can’t do both that and hit the button, I suppose.
Yeah, I always hit the like button on someone’s personal best posts, even if I don’t leave a comment on them. I also tend to hang out in Technical Support and Bug Report. The people in there that regularly post helpful stuff tend to like each other’s posts to help maintain their TLs, as this enables them to post links / embed screenshots in their advice.
Same here and somehow I ended up TL3. I guess I’ll enjoy it while it lasts!
some interesting insights. very nice to have someone that enthusiastic about EQ in general.
I tested many rotations back in the day and it seemed to worked out the best for me with that setup. having even a bit more CDR can make a big difference in that you may be able to change the rotation (thats also why Crimson seems such an interesting addition to me. of course beside of the dmg multiplier)
overall you’re right. back then I even thought it was stonger than the standard Leapquake builds. Tested the difference with fire EQ and they seemed equally strong but I still thought there was maybe still room for improvments in the build.
Mainly because there are many differences between the builds.
like you said the higher frequency of Lightning EQs kinda equals out with the lower skill dmg for each EQ.
so like you mentioned the other big factors regarding gameplay and power in general are:
- WotB uptime on every CoE lightning cycle
- EW/CoE instead of F/R Hellfire
- very low AD in comparison
- less mobility, kinda cluncky in general when moving
however as mentioned before there is now also FoT which makes fishing much more beneficial.
of course it is competetive with the other EQ centric options but I mainly pushed with it because it was something completely different in approaching the EQ build; was testing the limits with it.
however truth been told it is a much less enjoyable playstyle unfortunately
I set up the build for myself and gave it a try: wore EW + BoM, Crimson belt and pants, put RoRG in cube. Had good CHC and CHD, but only 84% AD. With Gogok at full stacks, CDR was around 65%. Did a 115 in one key (on live, not PTR). Not great maps and was close on the timer. I’ll probably try 120 next and see how that feels.
Tried a few 120’s, and got some pretty good maps. Felt decent. Would have cleared one if I got a power at the boss. Missed by about 45 seconds. This time was running with my normal Tribes, which is primal + augmented, and I rerolled dmg% to CDR%. 110% AD.
After that I ran a 120 with Fire setup, good maps again, but no power and no conduit. Missed by 10 seconds.
Gut reaction: Fire is maybe 2-ish GRs stronger. Of course, I have infinitely more practice playing Fire, but I find I’m picking up the Lightning rotation pretty quickly.
If you’re interested, here’s 115: Lightning Leapquake GR 115 - YouTube
And 120: Lightning Leapquake GR 120 - YouTube
Hahaha, laughing at myself, not with myself, thanks for the detailed response by the way. They say the only stupid question is the one left unasked but having read your response and seeing I completely forgot Girdle, well it makes me question them… hahaha. Messerschmidt’s Reaver is fun in a speed build but it doesn’t help on the dreaded Boss marathon (other than getting there sooner obv) . That’s all well and good for grinding but has no real value when pushing High GR and trying to stay alive, so I wrote that one off long ago. I have always played the build as a bit of Fire MoTE purist for the most part, so it looks like business as usual.
first of all: nice for giving that build another try.
yet I don’t see it giving up CoE. the value of having every lightning cycle to do full WotB boosted dmg is too strong.
you have 59.96% CDR (before gogok stacks) to line it up perfectly. (which is only possible with maxed out CDR gear + leo crown)
you need 64.5% CDR to meet the 32 sec window for activating WotB on every 2nd lightning cycle.
not meeting that threshold feels worse on the rotations and mainly also shifts your CoE / WotB cycles apart.
to summarize: CoE is closer to being a 1.8x multiplier in the build than the usual 1.5x
losing leo crown and a ring slot for Crimson to gain 7.5% cdr is possible but again giving up CoE is at least part of the reason for having those high cdr values.
That’s also the reason why I only thought about adding the Crimson set with a 4th cube slot.
For adding Crimson in NS you would probably need to go CoE+ FoT instead of EW to be an option.
little smaller but more consistent multiplier and cdr for smoother gameplay (maybe possible to squeeze in another AD roll instead of cdr on gear)
again, still interesting seeing someone else messing around with that variant
I don’t think that’s correct.
Think about it this way: imagine your base damage is 1 per second.
Now let’s look at a 32 second increment with either nothing, CoE, or Crimson.
So, with nothing:
20 seconds of WoTB, for 20 * 1.5 = 30 damage
12 seconds of nothing, for 12 * 1 = 12 damage
42 damage total
So, with CoE:
4 seconds of CoE + WoTB, for 4 * 3 * 1.5 = 18 damage
12 seconds just WoTB for 12 * 1.5 = 18 damage
4 more seconds of CoE + WoTB, for 4 * 3 * 1.5 = 18 damage
12 seconds no buffs for 12 * 1 = 12 damage
66 damage total
With Crimson (my CDR was just north of 65%, so 1.65x damage):
20 seconds of Crimson + WoTB, for 20 * 1.65 * 1.5 = 49.5 damage
12 seconds of Crimson only, for 12 * 1.65 = 19.8 damage
69.3 damage total
And in each case, these 32 second increments just repeat.
So, first, your actual damage buff of CoE over nothing is (66 / 42 = 1.57), i.e. a 57% buff, not 80%.
As for Crimson vs CoE, you’re doing a little more damage with Crimson than with CoE (69.3 / 66 = 1.05), i.e. about 5% more damage. And you get some extra toughness thrown on top to boot. You also don’t have to take CDR on your amulet, which gets you another extra 15-18% damage, depending on whether you were dropping Ele%, CHC, or CHD off the amulet.
So, (69.3 / 66) * 1.15 = 1.2075 , i.e. Crimson is actually doing 20 -21% more damage.
ya, I’m not comparing CoE to Crimson actually. i would like to take both, because both are incredible for that kind of build.
Your numbers are correct. I was just calculating the time while WotB is up and the fact that the build is a “CoE” build that utilizes the ring instead of just using it for the sake of having no other dps ring option available (common diablo 3 itemization problem)
CoE is a “timing window” item after all and lining up WotB with it makes sense to me (talking about build synergies).
Leapquake builds for example have less CDR and therefore getting non-WotB boosted cycles pretty frequently, therefore diminishing the value of CoE when directly compared to this Lightning EQ build.
Well I guess you get the idea for where I’m coming from. therefore the “1.8 multiplier” I mentioned was just wrong, my apologies for that confusing statement. point I was trying to make still stands.
I fully watched your 115 clear. during the rift EWs dmg multiplier aspect had an average of ~40-50%. That’s also a problem with the set especially when not having a god tier rift.
in that case CoE + FoT would always be the better option. would also keep Crimson that way as suggested in my previous post.
I had a feeling there were too many leaps. which hinders EWs dmg bonus to stack up faster.
my rotation I always tried to aim was:
- Leap + TS --> EQ --> SS
- Leap + WC --> EQ --> SS
- Leap + TS --> EQ --> SS
- Leap --> SS
In any case I would love to have it tested with all of the multipliers but the Season theme is not activated on NS ptr. I remember there was a season theme on NS ptr sometime in the past ;(
No problem man, everybody makes mistakes, definitely including me!
Agree. Not only does it cut down on EW, but Leap has the longest animation of any EQ-causing effect. The less you need to Leap, the better. But: keep in mind that was literally the first time I’d ever played the setup!
Hmm, let’s see… so I guess the various options are:
RoRG + Crimson + BoM + CoE + FoT, which gives a 1.65 * 1.57 = 2.59x multiplier, plus you get FoT, which can be very handy.
RoRG + Crimson + EW + BoM. Shall we call EW something like a 1.7x multiplier in a good rift? What do you think? That would be 1.65 * 1.7 = 2.80x. So that’s only like 8% more damage than the previous setup. You’re almost certainly right that FoT is more valuable than 8% extra damage. If EW could be as high as a 1.9x average multiplier, which seems kind of unlikely to me, you’d have 1.65 * 1.9 = 3.135x, which is about 21% more than the first setup. Then it would be pretty close between EW and FoT.
F+R + BoM + FoT, which gives a 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25 multiplier. Clearly not as good.
And, there are various options that involve dropping BoM, but that will probably just lead to death, certainly for lower paragon players.
Anyway, yeah, I think you’re right that CoE + BoM + RoRG + Crimson is worth a try, and may well be the best non-seasonal setup.
Since MOTE6 is back to EarthQuaking, Girdle of the Giant should be extended to at least 4 seconds, perhaps 5…
Correct, and there is still the standard variant
CoE + EW + BoM 1.57 * 1.7 = 2.67x
Difficult to guess the real value of EW.
1.7 at least, but maybe higher. Every leap consumes ~15% of the multiplier and you gain ~30% for executing the EQ + SS combo. Those are raw estimates but it stacks up pretty quickly from 0 to 100 while dpsing in ~11 seconds and then it stays there between 85-100.
dropping BoM would not be a bad option (Morticks Brace certainly helps in that regard) if there is a reasonable rotation to execute without having WC and then adding IP instead. still is very squishy when both WotB and IP is down, so need to take care of those cooldowns on top, which I don’t like.