Hey mimung,
I’m glad you’ve found your own variant that you’re having fun with. I just wanted to make sure of one thing: you do know about CC resistance buildup on mobs, right? After a few seconds of stunning them via Wyrdward, they’ll become mostly immune to stun/freeze/fear, which will make your APDs much less effective at providing defense.
Hey Rage thx for the reply and for the guide again. It really got me going! =D
Yes i know about CC resi and H90S suffers greatly from it. But that aside i learned that APDs are a contradiction in themselves. I dont need the defence when im not hit because stuff is stunned. It only helped against magic effects and only so much and unreliably.
Since then i am experimenting with Fulminator Ess of Jordan and Strongarm bracers (apart fromn the beaten azure path). I dont understand Fulminators interaction with bastions lightning dmg spread yet, furthermore i cant wrap my head around how much dmg it can do in theory, all i know is that fulminator ess of jordan has the potential to be the density multiplier fury desperately needs.
things i dont know is e.g. if the fulmi proc crits count toward bloodshed and if they stack stricken on the main target.
since fury stacks a lot of enemy damage taken i have a hunch of an oportunity with fulmi.
All i know is that fury attacks crazy fast and shuld insta stack fulmi on every enemy in the vicinity.
lets say you have 20 enemys each pulsing 100% weapon dmg each second to eachother thats 2000% a sec against the yellow main target and 19 times 2000% weapon dmg aoe dmg. lets say half of them crit for 500% percent and that all gets added to bloodshed…
cant rly test that right now because i mistakenly cubed my only ess of jordan and cant swap a ring because im low para and need both aquila (via grandeur) and unity to not be onehit.
anyways i will see if there is still something good to be had with lightning and will keep you posted about it.
cheers
Hey mimung,
So, Fulminator isn’t going to help you out. Because the damage buff on the H90 set (as well as the buff on Undisputed Champion) only apply to the Frenzy skill. So, between those two items, your Frenzy gets buffed by about 600x, but Fulminator’s damage doesn’t get buffed at all. Hits from Fulminator also won’t count towards Bloodshed.
Hmm yeah i knew the 6er H90 is only for frenzy; 10000% right?.
I did read that there was a paradigm shift from proc weapons to skill dmg set boni over the course of D3s history. still i hoped that big mob stacks would help get fulmi raket up and i especially hoped that it would count towards bloodshed and would stack stricken gem… so thanks for clarifying and sorry for being a noob here haha.
I am kinda dissapointed how limited Fury seems. EFs fear makes it unplayable if not at least annoying and you cant stack its effect in higher rifts. and other weapons either proc too low or nonsensical or too random to rely on. azure has the aoe stun for double dmg build right into one item, with inc cold dmg to boot.
Also BoMs 80% forces you to use it. I dont enjoy it at all so i worked around with Unity and ignore pain but it aint as good. thats ok because keeping track of the BoM buff is stressfull.
i think i will shift my gameplan from achieving high rifts to just chill and enjoy playing a build i like and see how it goes.
thanks again for the help.
cheers
Sure thing man, good luck out there!
Yo Rage i respect your knowledge about Fury and the game a lot, you seem to be a gozu i can learn from. I now found a legacy of dreams build that i enjoy a lot, i still dont know how high itll rift but its easy of play and the quality of life features it has are fun. i would rly lov if you could check it out in my profile, its the seasonal Kelky. still switching and finetuning a lot but youll get the jist.
the tank is ridicul. i still cant say the max rift potential because i lack ancients to fully benefit from legacy of dreams but i totaly love that with LoD all the legendaries are again considerable.
its amazing how u can fine tune the build either if u need more trash clear or faster rift boss kills. since i enjoy exactly this in games: building LoD is my way of D3. It may not make it to the ladder but its good jolly fun.
cheers Rage, much respect!
im currently in my push build.
the Rift speed farm build uses EF, Pandemonium, rampage and whatever else tank you can give up for more speed, might even drop stomp and BoM for sprint marathon. its a LOT of fun stuff just evaporates lol.
sry if i hijack your thread. afterall its ment to be about the H90. i will make my own in the future.
Hey mimung,
Glad you’ve found a setup you’re enjoying. I haven’t personally played a LOD setup at all, but I know @Poconut#1717 tried it out a good bit in the PTR before the Frenzy upgrades released, and said he thought the build was about 5 GRs behind H90. I think that was before the 2-piece was extended to include Freeze and Stun (originally, it was only Fear), so maybe it would be more like 6 GRs today.
Still, if that’s accurate, then that means that I could do something like 123 or so with it, and a really high paragon player could hit the low-mid 130’s.
If you’re looking for the optimum setup for pushing, then my guess would be that’s something like this: https://www.d3planner.com/133631469
You could also play a super-cooldown version that would look like this: https://www.d3planner.com/842700167
For your current setup, one thing I should warn you about is your Stone Gauntlets. This item is great for toughness, but each time you get hit, you slow down. This negative effect can be nullified if you are CC immune, but with this build, just like with H90, there’s no way to have 100% WOTB uptime. So you may actually end up getting stun-locked by enemies for a while. If you want another glove option that helps with survival, try St. Archew’s Gage.
No, it’s totally fine. I’m way more likely to see any questions you have about this setup here than in a new post.
Edit: I set up a LoD push build and gave it a try. Feels a lot more than 6 GRs weaker to me- at least 10 GRs.
Thx again for answering.
Stonegauntlets debuff is nullified by ice stompers 
I totaly disagree to use EF for pushing.
It relys on deaths and has too low uptime in higher rifts.
It can snowball in speeds, especially together with rampage and pandemonium but imho it has no place in a push.
If going fire i wuld prefer sankis.
But Odyn gives +20% lightning and can proc 3x400% weapon damage without icd. It works against Trash as Aoe and against single target; intesifies the effect of bastion wich has lower single target dmg the higher the denisty.
Double ess + stomp and strongarm procs and stacks the 30% inc dmg for 8 seconds.
leorics crown and diamond gives a ton of Bersker and stomp uptime.
Stomp and double Ess (Strongarm) both help to sort the mobs and make area damage, bloodshed and death watch mantle rly shine, standing in occulus is childs play.
the issue with S90Hs double damage on CC mobs is that due to immunity that boost is lost in higher rifts where the fight takes longer. one could argue that it gives a burst in beginning to help clear trash around yellow when u aoe cc with AZ and rely on Bloodshed and area dmg to clear trash in the timeframe where they aint imune to cc for double dmg.
the problem is you cant profit from the trash deaths, you could use rampage to get 25 stacks faster to help against yellow but u loose area dmg against yellow if its solo.
but again high rifts= long fight, lower rampage uptime.
hard trash: lower trash death profit uptime, lower CC doubledmg profit uptime. wich makes EF, Rampage and Pandemonium and H90Ss Azures double dmg against CC fall off the longer the fight takes.
other trash profit triggers like pandemonium dont slack in H90S because only frenzy dmg is boosted vs LoDs general dmg boost. and even in LoD pandemonium falls off because hard trash has less death time so that pandemonium proc uptime is too low to argue for its use.
Let me sum it up:
the longer the fight, the higher the rift:
H90 CC double dmg boost: zero
EF, Rampage, Pandemonium “trashdeath triggers”:zero
Trash death = bad.
stricken sotosay takes over the longer the fight takes so the H90S double dmg from cc is only in the beginning until stricken takes over.
LoD Odyn Strongarm does neither rely on CC nor on Trashdeath.
It thrives on density and scales with it.
That was a lot and a bit freaky man but i hope u get what i mean.
Still man, if it aint rift it aint rift I just belive in the build and i cant wait to get the gear together to see how high it can push.
Respect!
i believe the perfect build kills everything in the pocket at the same time.
Hmm, a few notes:
Good point!
Well, a lot of folks, like Sengerene and Trikalicious, have gotten really good results pushing with it. I’m not a big fan of the weapon, though I did do a 125 in just a few keys with something like 17k STR. You may not like it either, but it is definitely a good option.
Even though the proc damage of Odyn Son gets boosted by LoD, the effect is still basically zero. It doesn’t tie into Bloodshed, and doesn’t get multiplied by Oathkeeper, Undisputed Champion, or Bastion’s. 20% elemental is good, though.
Be aware that Strongarms is additive, so you’re actually only getting about 12 -13% damage out of it.
No, that’s not really how AD works in this build, either with H90 or LoD. The amount of AD dealt is fairly constant, no matter how many enemies you pack around you (unless it’s just one enemy, of course). This is because your damage gets split up more and more for each additional enemy around you.
So:
This is REALLY not true. Once you’ve mowed down all the trash around an elite, he dies super quickly because 1) he accumulates a ton of Stricken stacks really fast and 2) the entire pool of Frenzy damage is focused on him. That’s why you can kill a single-target RG quicker than one with adds, and also why it’s so incredibly fast: generally less than 60 seconds, even at a high level of push.
So anything that helps you chop down that density (like Rampage or EF) not only gets you progression from that density faster, it also helps you get to the part where you slaughter the elite really quickly, even if your Rampage and EF stacks fall off at that point.
Anyway, have fun with the build, and let us know how it goes!
You are right i will be silent now and stop with the theory and just see how high itll go. Reality check sotosay haha. We need hard numbers now. Working on it!
Edit: I just saw all the in depth replys from you thank you man!
I see i have to learn a lot.
Especially that i was wrong about area damage completly contradicts my asumptions and reasoning for the build. I read about AD in the wiki and aparently understood it wrong sorry! I thought the more enemys around a yellow the more AD he recieves.
I also did the calculation for Odyn again and found a mistake i made. Odyns proc is only 3% more damage even with LoD. Your right. I thought it was 10%.
Even in LoD fury has such a ridiculous multiplier (through undisputet 5, oathkeeper 3,bastions 2, from the skill itself 2 and 2 from depth diggers so a 120x multi of base weapon dmg + ele damage multi) that any proc of any legendary like odyns 12x/3chance = 4x or death mantles (10 multi 30%chance to proc after being hit, hits every enemy…) is still meaninglessly low…
didnt know about strongarm being additive… lol dayum
sorry mate, i will think things through more carefully and doublecheck before talking again
Cheers
No worries, man.
I just want to make sure you understand about this:
That strange AD situation is an effect of the Bastion’s Revered weapon, and so is specific to Frenzy builds. With other builds, like Rend, or HOTA, or Leapquake, your damage from AD does indeed go up and up the more enemies you can cram together.
But with Frenzy, most of your damage comes from the Bastion’s chain, and this gets split up into smaller and smaller pieces the more enemies there are within 15 yards of you.
So, let’s say the chain was doing 1000 damage.
If you are fighting one guy, the chain hits him for 1000 damage. If you are fighting 5 guys, they each get hit for 200 damage. With 10 guys, it’s 100 damage each, and so on. So the amount of total damage dealt by the chain is constant, no matter how high or low the density. And each of those hits can proc AD, but the smaller the initial hit in each case, the smaller the AD proc. So, the AD dealt to each of your enemies ends up being fairly constant.
All that said, with Frenzy, having some AD on your gear is still good. It’s just that the effect of that AD doesn’t climb through the roof and keep going, the way it does with Rend, HOTA, or Leapquake, where 75% or more of your total damage comes from AD. With Frenzy, AD makes a modest, rather than enormous, contribution.
Just for kicks I recorded two 115s, one with a LoD setup, and one with a super-nerfed H90 setup.
LoD setup had around 19k str vs around 11k for H90, and with H90 I also only used Simplicity’s Strength. Other two gem slots were just empty.
The two runs felt pretty similar in power… I felt like I was still doing more damage with the H90 setup, even with all that nerfing, though LoD was a heck of a lot tankier, thanks to Stone Gauntlets.
LoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAw7gKzAZqA
H90: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAw7gKzAZqA
I think that most of the difference in power between the two builds comes down to a couple of major buffs that LoD lacks. First is the fact that you don’t have a slot for Trapped. If you want to push and kill the RG in decent time, it’s got to be Simplicity - Stricken - LoD. So that’s a big damage drop. The second thing missing is the doubled shouts, in particular Bloodshed. Doubling this is a huge help in clearing density. This is because it adds up all those little hits from the Bastion’s chain, and puts them back together again into one big “splat” of damage.
Anyway, that’s my two cents. But, please don’t think I’m trying to put you off of playing that LoD setup. If it’s fun for you, that’s really the only important thing.
Ya thx man!
Im new and i shuld L2P more haha. Its just my way of learning a game. and i just dont enjoy using THE build in games. i enjoy playing around with mechanics.
Thank you for discussing this with me, i enjoy that a lot!
My initial hunch was:
S90 10.000% on fury. shouts (in comparison to LoD): 10% inc dmg 3% inc crit, enemys take 25% more dmg, bloodshed double damage (wich is by far the largest buff apart from the 6er) 60% less damage taken
LoD full ancient 13x2x360(reasonable gem lvl)= 9360% increased damage on everything and 52% decreased damage taken , initially i thought odyn proc wuld add 10% so we are close to 10.000% now.(i was wrong its 3% i miscalct and forgot ele dmg as a factor) then strongarm 30% stack makes up for the shouts ( iwas wrong its additive). death mantle makes up for double bloodshed. (again wrong)
i know about bastions second hit to be spread however i thought any hit culd trigger AD including deaths mantle furthmore im still wondering what crits get added to bloodshed and which not. getting hit by 10 meele and 10 ranged mobs 30% chance to proc death mantle each explosion hitting 25 mobs with a 50% chance to crit and be added to the bloodshed tick and 20% of DM spread AD on their surrounding… i thought that would ball.
then i thought what i would gain:
leorics diamond easy to reach 50% cdr: higher zerker uptime
much higher tank: aquila, unity, stonegauntlets and BoM
imunity to freeze etc
much easier/chill gameplay through stomp/ess of johan
and again your right losing a gem is big.
ah yeah at least im having fun and exploring mechanics, thx for helping me with that.
and man i gotta tell you. EF LoD Pandemonium Ess is the most fun i had in D3 so far.
So, this too is a a little screwy. Generally, procs from weapons, like the lightning from Thunderfury or Odyn Son, or the knives from Death Watch, etc don’t have a proc rate of their own, so they don’t activate either AD or Bloodshed.
There are exceptions for this, though, like the chain from Bastion’s Revered. This essentially “counts as Frenzy” rather than a separate proc, and it shares Frenzy’s proc rate of 75%.
AD has a 20% chance of proccing on a hit from anything with a proc rate. And when it does, it procs for damage equal to your sheet AD % * the damage of the proccing hit. So, if a hit from the Bastion’s chain did 100 damage, and you had 94% AD on your sheet, then there would be a 20% chance of that mob radiating 94 damage to all other mobs within 10 yards.
Bloodshed is a little different. It only procs from anything with a proc rate, and it “discounts” based on the proc rate of the skill used (and of course, it only calculates crits, and multiplies by 0.2). So, if you critically hit an enemy for 1000 damage with a skill that had a proc rate of 5%, Bloodshed would do only 1000 * 0.2 * 0.05 = 10 damage. Not great!
If, on the other hand, the skill had a proc rate of 75%, like Frenzy, you’d get 1000 * 0.2 * 0.75 = 150 damage. Much better.
And of course it deals that damage to every enemy within 20 yards, i.e. each of them would take 10 damage in the first case, or 150 damage in the second.
Don’t feel bad about not knowing this stuff. It’s extremely complicated and confusing, and the rules aren’t even consistent. Sometimes when a weapon causes a skill effect, it does proc AD / Bloodshed (like Bastion’s with Frenzy, or Blade of the Tribes with Earthquake) and other times, it doesn’t (like Ambo’s Pride with Rend). I’ve encountered players with 10k paragon who don’t know how this stuff works, or who think they know, but are wrong.
Man this is dope! Thank you so much for clarifying, i hope others can read this legit wiz your dropping and learn from you! So others might learn from my mistakes.
I rly tried to get info on all that on the web but it aint easy. So thx and again thx for the patience.
I will still push LoD, i enjoy it so much. Since i was wrong with Odyns, i tried rymeheart now still lackluster and also reliant on cc wich will be nought in high rifts. i think i will give sankis a shot, drop aquila for cindercoat and use magefist. thx for the inspiration and patience.
if i someday git gud maybe we can roll together.
cheers mate
Yeah, it’s super hard. The game has changed a lot over time, and more often than not, old info never gets changed, so there is a ton of misinformation out there.
I think Sankis is a good idea. The occasional doubled toughness is definitely helpful. I wonder if you’ll have a bit of trouble surviving without Stone Gauntlets. The armor from those is super helpful. Give it a shot, though!
BTW, here is a list of which damage sources are additive and which are multiplicative. Can come in handy.
Thx again i will study that list!
My reasoning for sankis isnt so much the 35% dmg reduction proc since its random but nice to have sure but i got too much tank anyways.
reason is its 20% fire and switch to magefist with stonegauntlets and cindercoat for aquila.
i think i can drop a 50% damage reduction, i dont even dent from lazors or splosions i can just chill in them as long as i spam stomp BoM.
defensively if i drop aquila i still got unity 50 and stonegauntlets 50 over the S90H 4 set bonus ca.10% more reduce over LoD full Ancient, 15% more from shout and augilds (15% flat + 30% against elite) build.
so i should be fine.
what i lack is the dmg from augilds (30% + 30% against elite), S90 shout 15% dmg 5% crit, double bloodshed, a bit of frenzy dmg and a gem, wich is either stricken or trapped and the 100% of endless walk (!) i aint counting double against cc because that will be naught in high rifts.
and for real now i dont see how 40% more eledmg of even LoDs sankis/magefist/cinder over AZ S90H and an additive strongarm proc ( even from stomp spam and double ess plus sorc push), together with higher zerker uptime via leoric diamond and that lil aoe from deathwatch could ever make up for it…
the LoD build quite frankly died when i overestimated and miscalculated the Odyn proc (wich is 3% instead of 10% of frenzy even in LoD) and when i learnd that deathwatch doesnt trigger AD and isnt added to Bloodshed and still in LoD is just a 10 multiplier at best against frenzys 120.
if Odyn was 10%, strongarm was multiplicative and deathwatch would proc AD and would be added to bloodshed and would stack stricken on main then LoD could rift very high. but it aint, i was wrong.
im still a noob so idk about multiplayer yet but if u need a frenzy pull tank barb. LoD Stonegauntlets, aquila, unity, BoM, stomp, ess is one way to do it lol.
the journey was fun, i learned a lot.
what remains is:
i love to play with ess/stomp LoD i cant stand charge AZ H90 gameplay wise.
There is no alternative to AZ when you want to H90 high.
LoD EF Ess Pandemonium Rampage Sprint is a lot of fun to play and is a very potent speed farmer. atleast for frenzy lol
peace!
Sounds like you have all the info you need, but I figured I could at least fill in one more blank for you. Aside from LOD HOTA, Barbarians have no LOD build that is competitive with our major set-based builds. But that build is nowhere close to a strong as our top three–Slam, H90, and Rend.
On the flip side, if you’re interested in pursuing fun, off meta builds, you can have a lot of fun.
Thx for chiming in and sharing the info Free
If i remember right I read a lot of your posts in the Archive thread if i remember correctly you were in favour of wallcharge etc. and said its like quakes rocket jumps and strafe running. i agree with you and generaly enjoyd what your wrote. hackz are part of game culture, if u win a game by breaking/bending its rules its legit. generaly absolutely polished games are boring. i enjoyd SC II in TLOs prime when he found all those crazy strategys. its creativity vs discipline. today e.g. SCII is only discipline and APM, creativity is not part of the equasion anymore.
same with quake: the golden times where the speedrun battles where all those geniouses came up with new crazy ways to bend the game rules.
sure i do enjoy a world championship of quake dethmatch and got respect for the skill of those people, specially since i played practice maps back in the day too…
but generaly my fun in games today comes more from creativity, im too old for competitive APM. back in the day i was ok in quake, wow arena, EVE and SC2 but those days are over haha.
generaly, to both of you: thank you again for the warm welcome to D3, i apreciate it.
P.S.: Had a quick look at LoD Hota. bracers 500%, waders 20%, remorseless mace 250%, gravel 800%, hammer itself 500%… thats a lot more multi than furys just from eyeballing it… quik calc gave me 1134 multi for hota and only 750 multi for fury. LoD Ess Fury gains strongarm over LoD HOTA tho…
maybe im dumb idc i will still push LoD Ess Stomp Fury lol
Haha, correct! I used that comparison to argue against thinking of wall-charging as a bannable exploit of game mechanics. I prefer to think of it as something akin to strafe-jumping in Quake: a creative re-purposing of unintended game mechanics. That said, I’d be very happy if they found a way to patch out wall-charging. It would be nice if 2 of our builds didn’t rely on it for full optimization.
I feel ya on that. I don’t even play D3 much anymore–the grind is too time-consuming. These days, I prefer shooters, strategy games, and immersive sims. And I think that playing D3 on your own terms is 100% the right way to go about things. If you want to fully optimize and play according to the guides, go for it. If you want to slap together some wild LOD builds, go for it!
Either way, welcome to the Barb forum and let us know if we can help!
Yo Free
Idk if its allowed here but i wanna give sth in return for the warm welcome and the help from both you and rage:
i wuld wholeheartetly recommend Skyrim Ultimate (Requiem) with Dead is dead mod, if you havent playd that i would defo give it a shot.
I will leave this thread now to H90S related topics again.
See you around