[Guide] H90 Frenzy: A simple guide

Barbarian
435

You are right i will be silent now and stop with the theory and just see how high itll go. Reality check sotosay haha. We need hard numbers now. Working on it!

Edit: I just saw all the in depth replys from you thank you man!

I see i have to learn a lot.
Especially that i was wrong about area damage completly contradicts my asumptions and reasoning for the build. I read about AD in the wiki and aparently understood it wrong sorry! I thought the more enemys around a yellow the more AD he recieves.

I also did the calculation for Odyn again and found a mistake i made. Odyns proc is only 3% more damage even with LoD. Your right. I thought it was 10%.
Even in LoD fury has such a ridiculous multiplier (through undisputet 5, oathkeeper 3,bastions 2, from the skill itself 2 and 2 from depth diggers so a 120x multi of base weapon dmg + ele damage multi) that any proc of any legendary like odyns 12x/3chance = 4x or death mantles (10 multi 30%chance to proc after being hit, hits every enemy…) is still meaninglessly low…

didnt know about strongarm being additive… lol dayum

sorry mate, i will think things through more carefully and doublecheck before talking again

Cheers

1 Like
436

No worries, man.

I just want to make sure you understand about this:

That strange AD situation is an effect of the Bastion’s Revered weapon, and so is specific to Frenzy builds. With other builds, like Rend, or HOTA, or Leapquake, your damage from AD does indeed go up and up the more enemies you can cram together.

But with Frenzy, most of your damage comes from the Bastion’s chain, and this gets split up into smaller and smaller pieces the more enemies there are within 15 yards of you.

So, let’s say the chain was doing 1000 damage.

If you are fighting one guy, the chain hits him for 1000 damage. If you are fighting 5 guys, they each get hit for 200 damage. With 10 guys, it’s 100 damage each, and so on. So the amount of total damage dealt by the chain is constant, no matter how high or low the density. And each of those hits can proc AD, but the smaller the initial hit in each case, the smaller the AD proc. So, the AD dealt to each of your enemies ends up being fairly constant.

All that said, with Frenzy, having some AD on your gear is still good. It’s just that the effect of that AD doesn’t climb through the roof and keep going, the way it does with Rend, HOTA, or Leapquake, where 75% or more of your total damage comes from AD. With Frenzy, AD makes a modest, rather than enormous, contribution.

Just for kicks I recorded two 115s, one with a LoD setup, and one with a super-nerfed H90 setup.

LoD setup had around 19k str vs around 11k for H90, and with H90 I also only used Simplicity’s Strength. Other two gem slots were just empty.

The two runs felt pretty similar in power… I felt like I was still doing more damage with the H90 setup, even with all that nerfing, though LoD was a heck of a lot tankier, thanks to Stone Gauntlets.

LoD: LOD Frenzy 115 - YouTube

H90: LOD Frenzy 115 - YouTube

I think that most of the difference in power between the two builds comes down to a couple of major buffs that LoD lacks. First is the fact that you don’t have a slot for Trapped. If you want to push and kill the RG in decent time, it’s got to be Simplicity - Stricken - LoD. So that’s a big damage drop. The second thing missing is the doubled shouts, in particular Bloodshed. Doubling this is a huge help in clearing density. This is because it adds up all those little hits from the Bastion’s chain, and puts them back together again into one big “splat” of damage.

Anyway, that’s my two cents. But, please don’t think I’m trying to put you off of playing that LoD setup. If it’s fun for you, that’s really the only important thing.

2 Likes
437

Ya thx man!
Im new and i shuld L2P more haha. Its just my way of learning a game. and i just dont enjoy using THE build in games. i enjoy playing around with mechanics.

Thank you for discussing this with me, i enjoy that a lot!

My initial hunch was:

S90 10.000% on fury. shouts (in comparison to LoD): 10% inc dmg 3% inc crit, enemys take 25% more dmg, bloodshed double damage (wich is by far the largest buff apart from the 6er) 60% less damage taken

LoD full ancient 13x2x360(reasonable gem lvl)= 9360% increased damage on everything and 52% decreased damage taken , initially i thought odyn proc wuld add 10% so we are close to 10.000% now.(i was wrong its 3% i miscalct and forgot ele dmg as a factor) then strongarm 30% stack makes up for the shouts ( iwas wrong its additive). death mantle makes up for double bloodshed. (again wrong)

i know about bastions second hit to be spread however i thought any hit culd trigger AD including deaths mantle furthmore im still wondering what crits get added to bloodshed and which not. getting hit by 10 meele and 10 ranged mobs 30% chance to proc death mantle each explosion hitting 25 mobs with a 50% chance to crit and be added to the bloodshed tick and 20% of DM spread AD on their surrounding… i thought that would ball.

then i thought what i would gain:
leorics diamond easy to reach 50% cdr: higher zerker uptime
much higher tank: aquila, unity, stonegauntlets and BoM
imunity to freeze etc
much easier/chill gameplay through stomp/ess of johan

and again your right losing a gem is big.

ah yeah at least im having fun and exploring mechanics, thx for helping me with that.

and man i gotta tell you. EF LoD Pandemonium Ess is the most fun i had in D3 so far.

3 Likes
438

So, this too is a a little screwy. Generally, procs from weapons, like the lightning from Thunderfury or Odyn Son, or the knives from Death Watch, etc don’t have a proc rate of their own, so they don’t activate either AD or Bloodshed.

There are exceptions for this, though, like the chain from Bastion’s Revered. This essentially “counts as Frenzy” rather than a separate proc, and it shares Frenzy’s proc rate of 75%.

AD has a 20% chance of proccing on a hit from anything with a proc rate. And when it does, it procs for damage equal to your sheet AD % * the damage of the proccing hit. So, if a hit from the Bastion’s chain did 100 damage, and you had 94% AD on your sheet, then there would be a 20% chance of that mob radiating 94 damage to all other mobs within 10 yards.

Bloodshed is a little different. It only procs from anything with a proc rate, and it “discounts” based on the proc rate of the skill used (and of course, it only calculates crits, and multiplies by 0.2). So, if you critically hit an enemy for 1000 damage with a skill that had a proc rate of 5%, Bloodshed would do only 1000 * 0.2 * 0.05 = 10 damage. Not great!

If, on the other hand, the skill had a proc rate of 75%, like Frenzy, you’d get 1000 * 0.2 * 0.75 = 150 damage. Much better.

And of course it deals that damage to every enemy within 20 yards, i.e. each of them would take 10 damage in the first case, or 150 damage in the second.

Don’t feel bad about not knowing this stuff. It’s extremely complicated and confusing, and the rules aren’t even consistent. Sometimes when a weapon causes a skill effect, it does proc AD / Bloodshed (like Bastion’s with Frenzy, or Blade of the Tribes with Earthquake) and other times, it doesn’t (like Ambo’s Pride with Rend). I’ve encountered players with 10k paragon who don’t know how this stuff works, or who think they know, but are wrong.

4 Likes
439

Man this is dope! Thank you so much for clarifying, i hope others can read this legit wiz your dropping and learn from you! So others might learn from my mistakes.
I rly tried to get info on all that on the web but it aint easy. So thx and again thx for the patience.

I will still push LoD, i enjoy it so much. Since i was wrong with Odyns, i tried rymeheart now still lackluster and also reliant on cc wich will be nought in high rifts. i think i will give sankis a shot, drop aquila for cindercoat and use magefist. thx for the inspiration and patience.

if i someday git gud maybe we can roll together.

cheers mate

2 Likes
440

Yeah, it’s super hard. The game has changed a lot over time, and more often than not, old info never gets changed, so there is a ton of misinformation out there.

I think Sankis is a good idea. The occasional doubled toughness is definitely helpful. I wonder if you’ll have a bit of trouble surviving without Stone Gauntlets. The armor from those is super helpful. Give it a shot, though!

BTW, here is a list of which damage sources are additive and which are multiplicative. Can come in handy.

4 Likes
441

Thx again i will study that list!
My reasoning for sankis isnt so much the 35% dmg reduction proc since its random but nice to have sure but i got too much tank anyways.
reason is its 20% fire and switch to magefist with stonegauntlets and cindercoat for aquila.
i think i can drop a 50% damage reduction, i dont even dent from lazors or splosions i can just chill in them as long as i spam stomp BoM.
defensively if i drop aquila i still got unity 50 and stonegauntlets 50 over the S90H 4 set bonus ca.10% more reduce over LoD full Ancient, 15% more from shout and augilds (15% flat + 30% against elite) build.
so i should be fine.
what i lack is the dmg from augilds (30% + 30% against elite), S90 shout 15% dmg 5% crit, double bloodshed, a bit of frenzy dmg and a gem, wich is either stricken or trapped and the 100% of endless walk (!) i aint counting double against cc because that will be naught in high rifts.

and for real now i dont see how 40% more eledmg of even LoDs sankis/magefist/cinder over AZ S90H and an additive strongarm proc ( even from stomp spam and double ess plus sorc push), together with higher zerker uptime via leoric diamond and that lil aoe from deathwatch could ever make up for it…

the LoD build quite frankly died when i overestimated and miscalculated the Odyn proc (wich is 3% instead of 10% of frenzy even in LoD) and when i learnd that deathwatch doesnt trigger AD and isnt added to Bloodshed and still in LoD is just a 10 multiplier at best against frenzys 120.

if Odyn was 10%, strongarm was multiplicative and deathwatch would proc AD and would be added to bloodshed and would stack stricken on main then LoD could rift very high. but it aint, i was wrong.

im still a noob so idk about multiplayer yet but if u need a frenzy pull tank barb. LoD Stonegauntlets, aquila, unity, BoM, stomp, ess is one way to do it lol.

the journey was fun, i learned a lot.
what remains is:
i love to play with ess/stomp LoD i cant stand charge AZ H90 gameplay wise.
There is no alternative to AZ when you want to H90 high.
LoD EF Ess Pandemonium Rampage Sprint is a lot of fun to play and is a very potent speed farmer. atleast for frenzy lol

peace!

1 Like
442

Sounds like you have all the info you need, but I figured I could at least fill in one more blank for you. Aside from LOD HOTA, Barbarians have no LOD build that is competitive with our major set-based builds. But that build is nowhere close to a strong as our top three–Slam, H90, and Rend.

On the flip side, if you’re interested in pursuing fun, off meta builds, you can have a lot of fun.

2 Likes
443

Thx for chiming in and sharing the info Free :slight_smile:

If i remember right I read a lot of your posts in the Archive thread if i remember correctly you were in favour of wallcharge etc. and said its like quakes rocket jumps and strafe running. i agree with you and generaly enjoyd what your wrote. hackz are part of game culture, if u win a game by breaking/bending its rules its legit. generaly absolutely polished games are boring. i enjoyd SC II in TLOs prime when he found all those crazy strategys. its creativity vs discipline. today e.g. SCII is only discipline and APM, creativity is not part of the equasion anymore.
same with quake: the golden times where the speedrun battles where all those geniouses came up with new crazy ways to bend the game rules.
sure i do enjoy a world championship of quake dethmatch and got respect for the skill of those people, specially since i played practice maps back in the day too…
but generaly my fun in games today comes more from creativity, im too old for competitive APM. back in the day i was ok in quake, wow arena, EVE and SC2 but those days are over haha.

generaly, to both of you: thank you again for the warm welcome to D3, i apreciate it.

P.S.: Had a quick look at LoD Hota. bracers 500%, waders 20%, remorseless mace 250%, gravel 800%, hammer itself 500%… thats a lot more multi than furys just from eyeballing it… quik calc gave me 1134 multi for hota and only 750 multi for fury. LoD Ess Fury gains strongarm over LoD HOTA tho…
maybe im dumb idc i will still push LoD Ess Stomp Fury lol

2 Likes
444

Haha, correct! I used that comparison to argue against thinking of wall-charging as a bannable exploit of game mechanics. I prefer to think of it as something akin to strafe-jumping in Quake: a creative re-purposing of unintended game mechanics. That said, I’d be very happy if they found a way to patch out wall-charging. It would be nice if 2 of our builds didn’t rely on it for full optimization.

I feel ya on that. I don’t even play D3 much anymore–the grind is too time-consuming. These days, I prefer shooters, strategy games, and immersive sims. And I think that playing D3 on your own terms is 100% the right way to go about things. If you want to fully optimize and play according to the guides, go for it. If you want to slap together some wild LOD builds, go for it!

Either way, welcome to the Barb forum and let us know if we can help!

1 Like
445

Yo Free :slight_smile:
Idk if its allowed here but i wanna give sth in return for the warm welcome and the help from both you and rage:
i wuld wholeheartetly recommend Skyrim Ultimate (Requiem) with Dead is dead mod, if you havent playd that i would defo give it a shot.

I will leave this thread now to H90S related topics again.

See you around :slight_smile:

1 Like
446

Thanks very much, mimung. Haven’t played Skyrim in a hot minute–currently playing through Prey again–but I just might with your recommended mod!

447

DH, thought you might get a kick out of this. Did something I had been intending to try for a while now: running the build with a 2-handed weapon (Bastion’s).

Did a 125 on the first key. About 20k STR, gems in the high 120’s. Ran with Aughild rather than CoE for the extra defense, since you don’t heal nearly as fast as you do with a dual-wield setup, or the extra toughness of the S&B setup. This felt roughly as strong as S+B, i.e. maybe 3 or 4 GRs weaker than the main dual wield version.

I think the ideal rolls on Bastion’s would probably be STR - IAS - DMG% - Socket (from Ramaladni’s). Since the item always rolls with a socket, you’re stuck with STR.

6 Likes
448

Wow! I know you wouldn’t have posted had you not cleared, but I have too say that I had my doubts.:laughing:

Clearing that high with a 2H was barbaric and a sight to see, it just looked right. And you definitely have room for higher clears. Those were by no means good maps. Thx for posting that clear, it was worth the watch. I wish 2H weps had an innate 50% DR. Oh well.

3 Likes
449

50% would be a lot, but I don’t think it would be unreasonable if they did something like add an extra property to the Weapons Master passive: “2H Mighty Weapon: 20% damage reduction”, or something like that (or 10% AS, or 30000 LpH, etc)

3 Likes
450

That should be changed.

I was wondering about your secondary, was it freeze or stun by any chance?

1 Like
451

Yeah, 4.4% freeze on belt. Would have been good to have stun on gloves, too, but haven’t found a pair like that.

2 Likes
452

Yeah, it wouldn’t be hard to incentivize 2-H weapons, and I agree that the Weapon Master passive should reflect it. In fact, the entire passive is wildly out of date. Maybe something like this:

  • Dual-wielding grants 8% critical hit chance and 50% critical hit damage.
  • Two-handed weapons grant 10% damage reduction and triple your Life per Hit.
  • Wielding a one-handed weapon with a shield grants 7% attack speed and doubles your Life per Fury spent.

This way, the passive would target our three weapon options and target the weak spots for each. Just a rough idea. Thoughts?

4 Likes
453

I like Rage’s suggestions, but I like yours a little bit better (no offense Rage😁), especially the 2H & SB suggestions and this because you target there obvious flaws. Take away from either of them and it would be no improvement at all.

2 Likes
454

Hmm, I guess the thing is that you don’t really need to incentivize dual wielding at all, since this is already the superior option, both overall (Zodiac Rend), and for most of our builds (Rend, Slam, Frenzy, HOTA). We also already have a passive for using a shield, it’s just that S&B too is undertuned.

If you fixed S&B, then WM could probably be a passive just for 2-handers. While I’d love to dual wield 2-handers, that is probably not happening since they’d need to add a massive new set of animations.

There are a lot of issues with using a 2-Hander… you end up with less AD, CDR, CHD, and AS, all of which leads to stat crunches, slower healing, slower stacking of Stricken (making it much harder to kill bosses), and the only thing you get in return is higher base damage, which often doesn’t even compensate for the AS + AD + CHD.

If WM gave 10% damage (multiplicative, of course), 10% AS, and 10% CDR when using a 2H weapon, this would probably be a solid option without being OP…

Haha, none taken buddy.

3 Likes