I’ve been messing around with local coop for a few days and noticed a balance element that sides with Solo.
Build’s that rely on Unity lose the ability to mitigate half their damage due to absence of a follower that cannot die.
The only way around that would seem to me is if there are viable group setups where one of the characters stays out of harms way the entire run and is reasonably tanky… I’m not familiar with the group setups people run to know if that’s a viable option.
In group there is always a support barb providing 60% dodge, 25% damage mitigation, %armour, and croud control immunity. Typically there is also a support monk providing inner sanc for 55% damage mitigation, all 4 mantras, resolve(damage mit), lots of heals from epiphany, and constantly spammed absorbtion bubbles from mantra of healing. Group play provides alot more defense than solo with a unity.
I’ve been curious about group support so this answers some of the things I was wondering.
I guess unity is just 50% damage mitigation with a followerer compared to all of those damage reducers.
Is Unity even viable in group play?
Unity does nothing unless others are also wearing it. Not likely to convince others to wear one. It will also get people killed as actual players dont have damage immunity. Its a bad idea in group.
That’s pretty much what I’d expected from it in a group.
Not all of us…
I’ve been doing a lot of faking of late lol…
This ^^^^
Which is why I advocate for an adjustment of group difficulty. The system was set up for far less defensive and offensive synergy and the balance for it was never touched again. Since then, we’ve had 20,000% damage buffs to sets, new builds designed to efficiently take on high rifts even solo, never mind group, and reworks of skills…none of which have been enough (apparently) to warrant rebalancing of group play.
Of course…complaining about that imbalance only gets the group meta steamroller to come down on us. I wonder why they would want the game to stay the way it is. Hmm…could it be that they do have unfair advantage and don’t want to lose that edge?
Ok, not trying sound like the “steam roller” here, honestly.
95% of players who do play in group are still very much casual players. Of the group players who are grinders, yes they do have an advantage over players who choose to play solo. Even more so over casial solo players; however, the grinder group players would still have an advantage over most of those players anyway if they too only played solo. Is there an advantage? Yes. Is the advantage unfair? no. The main advantage is time played, of which each player has the same potential to put in the time.
These days, it isnt hard to get into group play. All you need is a half way decent support character like a zbarb, zDH, or zmonk. None of those builds takes long to put together or needs perfect ancient gear with augments.
If a player still doesn’t want to play in group, that is their choice.
If it really bothers a solo player having to compete against players who play in group, then it is because that individual is a competitive person. A competitive person would normally seek out means to level the playing field.
In the end it really comes down to just leaderboard placement. We don’t get a prize for leaderboard placement. All we get are bragging rights. If a solo player doesn’t play in group, it is typically because they either don’t have people to play with or they don’t like playing with other people. Who is there to brag to at that point?
The seasons I play solo, I strive for the highest placement I can. If I get beat, I get beat. I lose no sleep over it, and I find satisfaction in what I was able to acomplish.
You typically don’t. Even when disagreeing, I have noticed you have a tendency to be decent about it. This is why I listen to you, even if we don’t agree. Let’s hope the others see that example and adjust.
I did not mean to imply that group players are only professional grinding teams. Naturally, there are group players who are not.
I’m having some difficulty with this section. Can you clarify what you mean when you say that group grinders would have an advantage if they only played solo?
I can’t agree with this. If you compared the professional synchronized group players against solo players, then made the professional group players play solo and made that comparison again, I guarantee the results would be different. The only way group play would not have an inherent advantage in gains is if the difficulty were scaled up to remove the advantage of synergistic teams.
Solo players do not have access to:
-Massive defensive buffs from multiple sources outside their own set/skills
-Additional damage far in excess of what the multiplayer difficulty increase would require in order to break even, again from multiple sources
-Access to skill sets which are purpose-built to produce results greater than the sum of their parts (i.e. one player pulls while another nukes the stack, which would not be possible otherwise)
I would be genuinely curious to see how the GR placing would change if group play were eliminated entirely for just one season.
Maybe not every player. You’ll encounter the “I have a job” argument a lot here. I’m not the one who’s going to argue in favor of lowering the difficulty for those who don’t have enough time to contribute. Fair’s fair, but there’s a limit.
Yes, in theory, every player has equal access to the game. Assuming every player can put in the same amount of time, there should be no advantage there. However…time spent on the game is not the argument I’m making.
My experience with group play is an automatic kick for not letting others build my character for me. Players who do not bandwagon are immediately ejected. I can’t speak for anyone else, but if all I’m going to do is play copycat, I’m not interested in the game. Getting into group play requires giving up the right to play the game the way I want, which means I have to choose between gimped progress and bowing to peer pressure.
No, there really isn’t a choice here. If there is a group out there who doesn’t arrogantly try to play my character for me, I haven’t met them. I’d really like to. I stopped opening my game to the public ages ago for this reason, and I haven’t wanted to try it again. My experience on this forum alone is enough to suggest nothing has changed.
When the vast majority of group players want to dish out orders for how you have to play, that’s a removal of choice. “Solo is a choice” is not a valid argument. Not in this game.
Somewhat agree. I haven’t exactly been quiet about my opinion of leaderboards. I don’t want or need to compete, and I certainly won’t give up my enjoyment of the game to get there. However…is this really a strong argument against balancing group play versus solo play? Solo players clearly aren’t competitive, so group play can be unbalanced against them?
I don’t need or want to brag either. I’ll be happy if I do better than I did last time. It would be nice if I could play with others, but that would require letting them play the game for me. In this scenario, I am both of the solo player types you describe: I haven’t been able to find players who will let go of the idea of barking orders at others, and I don’t particularly like the idea of trying again.
I’ll drink to that. Cheers.
That’s me this season…i play in groups and grind but this season I’m a grinder but solo…the fact I grind means I have more paragon than casual group and solo players and the only players beating me are grinding group players of which there are few.
A grinder in groups who goes solo will still beat group and solo players who do not grind because Paragon wins the game.
I’ll agree that Paragon matters a great deal to progression, but I don’t think higher Paragon automatically wins. Same argument with all the bandwagoning players who think slotting the right combination of items and skills will automatically make them invincible.
Even the most efficient tool will fail in the hands of the unskilled.
If u equip ApD’s with Arlyse u get damage reduction from the frozen mobs surrounding u. Though cuz of the cc immunity on mobs after u freeze them, u better keep moving since u wont freeze them again with the next frost nova.
Back to topic… Personally i do both group and solo, but can like grouping since u get more exp much quicker. Aint been playing much these last few Seasons but when i do, i been playing more semi casual last few Seasons but still can find group play since i zmonk.
That being said i actually am liking the power creep… cleared a 115 with less than a 1000 paragons and came close to a GR120 a couple times with my Shelong PoJ… A little too squishy because i dont got enough toughness from vitality/main stat yet. Keeping kill count timer low for double damage is another issue when high pushing… Had a big Silver Spire GR with the 4 big platforms and blew it cuz my double daamge fell off. Tried going to the next floor to let my timer reset but lost too much progression. 120’s definately doable but gotta find the right rift and pay attention to things like explsions, walls ect…
I pretty much took Arlyse for two reasons:
-Frost Nova gives me a chance to escape when swarmed in melee, or a chance to stack the hell out of my twisters and nuke them before they can recover
-The feedback response from the controller which occurs during a procced nova tells me when my Illusionist passive has reset my Teleport cooldown, without having to look at the buff bar. This can be a split-second decision, which is made far easier and faster by that rumble.
It’s worked fairly well for me so far, but believe: I am always looking for ways to tweak what I’ve got. I don’t just slot one build and continue on forever with that; every character I play changes over time.
Of course…in group play, I wouldn’t have to worry about getting swarmed at all.
@Blessed, Throw on some Ancient Parthan Defenders so u can get the damage reduction from the frozen mobs. Frozen counts as stun… be sure to keep moving too since u cant freeze enemies for a certain time limit.
In group play u would have fun melting everything since ur supports will keep u alive… basically u go glass cannon with ur build but u will still be tanky AF.
The goal should definitely be to have solo and multiplayer balance. A few changes would help a lot.
I couldn’t sacrifice Ashnagarr for that, to be honest. The duration extension just isn’t worth losing half my shields.
No but it makes it easier to automatically win…
Don’t lie to people Zmonk gear is the most cancerous thing to get ever. Most wasted materials ugh 
Even then, those 95% casual gamers get a massive boost over solo players. I remember playing alongside homer and another guy in a 3 man group. 45 minutes of play, just under 70 paragon levels. I think we were doing 3 man 110s - it was earlier on in the season and it would have been time consuming to do 110 runs solo - would have probably taken me 13 minutes per run - vs 6 mins in the 3 man group. I worked out at the time that I probably would have gotten around 16 paragons from doing it solo, for the same time period spent/effort. Let me see, 60-70 paragon levels vs 16, mmm which one is better? It clearly tells me that group play is unbalanced and much easier than solo play. For greater rewards. No wonder so many people love group play and will fight tooth and nail to see that advantage remain.
That is also not true. Some of us have a life - work and family and simply don’t have that option to waste 10 hours a day on a game…
not quite. A reasonable comparison is 400m sprints - where you’re completely legit and your competitors are using steroids and bionic enhancements to enable more speed. Imagine if the olympics had that - would it be allowed? would it be deemed fair competition? Ask yourself that. That is the sort of advantage that group players get on the “solo” LBs.
The group grinders would just do solo grind and win. But, it would be a much flatter LBs - no 15 GR differential between the best group and solo players that we currently see - it’d be 2-4 GRs at maximum imho. A much more competitive LB where skill would matter more than paragon farming.
I rest my case.
the power creep has helped us “casuals” feel like we can play the game. Hit a 120 GR with my DMO twister wiz @ p830, no augments, not perfect gear (but all ancient at least). Pretty sure that I can do a 122/123 “as is”, but I am pretty new to wizard and still learning, plus, playing HC.
drop 30% for 2-4 man and tier it like:
2 man - 23%
3 man 26%
4 man 30%
personally, I’m in favour of dropping the XP bonus for group play altogether - replace it with increased magic find chances. A much better balance imho.