Same. I’d take this as a compromise though. Since Blizzard for some silly reason, believe that multiplayer must be rewarded more than solo.
What I dont get is how they in any way can argue that some multiplayer should be rewarded more than other multiplayer. As in, why should me playing with 3 friends be rewarded more than me playing with 1 friend. That is just complete nonsense.
More so than the nonsense of rewarding multiplayer at all.
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I see this more and more in games. They’re trying to force multiplayer. Some games are outright designed to require it; mostly MMOs. I wonder if that could have anything to do with the fact multiplayer on console is no longer free…
Blizzard’s balancing ability went out the window when D2 was released. I had a high level blizzard sorc in D2, that was ruined by the blizzard nerf - it was quite a massive nerf. You couldn’t re-spec skills in D2 in those days, so it was game over for me. Absolutely retarded in the worst sense of the word.
Not trying. They are.
Blizzard’s mantra seems to be get as much income as possible from half finished game, for as little expenditure as possible, and don’t worry about actual balancing in game. Also, favour group play over solo play, nay, make solo players lives HELL. Oh, and don’t fix issues with the game, and bugs. Adds more excitement to the game wink wink. I mean, how long did it take them to get the nerve to remove bazooka wiz from the game, when it was clearly evident that 99.9999999999% of players playing that build were cheating?
Even now, several builds are on pedestals - POJ monk, WW rend barb, HF cru, god DH, bone spear necro. They’re so far ahead of every other build for each of the respective character classes it isn’t funny. That’s not balancing. Far, far, far from it.
Playing as a group (or raid in games where it applies) brings the full gamit of utility from all the different classes, allowing the group/raid to be more than the sum of it’s parts.
It’s a rewarding experience that also takes compromise on the side of social elements.
It’s not for me to say should any game work this way or not work this way, but I was genuinely curious what games in this genre are out there that reward group and solo play equally - and are attractive to players who like grouping and players who like soloing at the same time.
The only answer I’ve seen so far is PoE. That’s not one of the many I’ve played so I can’t comment on that one unfortunately. It seems to be an exception to the rule from my online RPG experience.
From the games I have played, where grouping works well as described, only a limited number support solo play across all of the classes. Those would be D3 and Guild Wars. Both have quite elegant designs for what they are to my mind and I’ve enjoyed playing them… both primarily solo as it happened.
Other games I played I’ve been more involved in the group/raiding element where solo was less viable.
Which is fine. Multiplayer is indeed its own reward. No need for additional in-game rewards.
Neither Diablo, nor PoE, are MMOs though.
Most A-RPGs do not directly reward multiplayer more than solo. Only Diablo 3 afaik. Now, many of them indirectly do, by making multiplayer easy-mode compared to solo. Which is problematic too. Once again D3 is exceptionally bad in that regard though. No other A-RPG comes anywhere close to being that unbalanced.
Multiplayer should probably be a tiny bit easier than solo, just to avoid the situation PoE is in, where people might not want to play together, because it is inefficient. But the two should be pretty close. Most A-RPGs seems to manage this reasonably well. Except D3.
In D2, grouping is also easy mode, but it also comes at the cost of less loot per player. Not a good way to balance things, much better if they are both equally rewarding and challenging, but at least they tried.
I noticed earlier, dpasterns point on this and I have been giving it some thought. Maybe there is a point here:
I’m going to edit that post to describe “online RPG” instead of “MMO” for the purpose of the topic at hand.
Get us out of the side topic of whether D3 qualifies as MMO or not.
well, the Diablo games have always been about LOOT. Loot find. Gear. Except for D3, which primarily revolves around multiplay and farming paragon, since paragon = dmg. I remember when paragon was introduced (I wasn’t playing the game at the time, but a friend was still) and he told me about it and I didn’t like it. Of course, paragon v1 is different to paragon v2. The latter made the former much, much worse, and far more insidious into the game.
There is simply zero need for paragon to be giving XP.
What I like about Paragon is it adds another dimension to the game. Another thing to develop.
With that said, it’s accepted paragon wins seasons and that is where I think there’s a point to consider in what you said about grouping adding bonus to xp.
Also to consider is what keeps people coming back to play. Varied reasons I’m sure.
What is there to do after level 70, be it seasons or non. Paragon and gear improvements to push GR. I like the elegance in this, but I give room to consider balance of Paragon v Equipment in that equation… and within that consideration, there is how XP is contributing to Paragon and consideration of solo/group balance.
At least that’s how I’m rationalising what I understand so far.
Would I play Diablo 3 in my group if they removed the group exp bonus? No not at all it’s too much fun in the party chat. Even if all of us are just at the cube at the end of the day. Especially in California where everything is shut down my social life is my friends on this game or any game I play atm.
In my head it comes down once again to whiny group/clan PC players. I am going to group all the time regardless because it’s more fun for 99% of the game. (Except key farming I like to pick up everything and clear floors I hate when people are just key focus in my game so that’s always solo)
It’s funny though this season the twister wiz is so strong once you get the gear its a solo 150 build under 2K paragon if your a skilled wiz player (I am not lol)
Just wait til next season when they buff the wiz more because the game on pc is so different that console, I don’t mind but sheesh more power?.
I understand this sentiment a lot. Grouping with regulars is just fun. In some settings the group was more social, in other settings the group was more efficienct. Both had their place for me.
I would still grind out other objectives when group mates were not online. Back then I made a lot of time for gaming.
Ok…
Current group play xp bonuses are:
2 players 10%
3 players 20%
4 players 30%
If they removed those xp bonuses altogether I’d be fine with it because group play still would net higher xp in a given amount of time because of two reasons. First, faster clears of same solo gr level. Second, the ability to complete higher gr levels than when solo.
A team of players is always greater than the sum of its parts. There is no way to stop that! Blizzard can try, but their efforts would require them to remove any and all advantages of teamwork, which would completely ruin the game in a social aspect and ruin sales. Its not going to happen. The needs of the many… The majority of players want group play and would likely not continue playing the game if group play were to be severely handicapped.
Every season I see 10-20 friends on the game at the start of the season. 1 month in half of them are still playing, and the ones still playing are the ones who play group. The solo players get bored very quickly and dissapear until the start of the next season. It isn’t because of balance issues. It is because of the lack of socializing. Even when playing in group, if people aren’t talking and cutting up, group play doesn’t last long. It isn’t the game that keeps us playing, it is the social interaction.
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I think there’s an element of immersion that comes from functional grouping also. Like the hours just disappear.
May be possible to speculate the xp bonus is an enticement to encourage more to do it and to be engaged with the game more as a result… but I wouldnt have the numbers to assess if that were effective.
That comparison fails for two reasons…the group method ie your steroids…group play is by design in Diablo yet Steroids are illegal…your comparison would be botting in comparison to steroids.
Secondly, the method groups use is open to the solo player thus both racers in your sprint have the same option…one chooses not to…that’s on the player/runner choosing that option not the fact there is the option itself.
I disagree on both accounts.
Comparison 1 - is simply a comparison of those competing legitimately, and those using a tool to gain a superior advantage. It is based on the performance/comparison perspective, not on what is and what isn’t legal/illegal.
The second point of view is the old argument that group players use. i expected better from you Nick.
The game cannot cater to both solo players and group players, it just cannot. To cater to one side means to neglect or punish the other. Either way you go, someone will have a problem with it. Therfore, pleasong the majority is the best option. Sorry solo players, you are not the majority. If you want to play a game all by yourself and dont want players to have an advantage from group play, find a game that is single player only. Enough said.
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Dude you are wrong.
You are comparing group v solo in D3 to runners in a race using illegal means versus legit? Groups are not using illegal means, they are using designed parts of the game which simply offers designed benefits.
More like a runner using a tool like better running shoes but the point still stands, both runners can wear the shoes.
Your fighting your points with illogical points.
We all agree group gets rewards over solo and perhaps there should be a balancing of it but equally that is by design…the onus of Blizzard is to make the game they want and desing it with features that offers the market the best way to play and social interaction by far is a big point in D3.
The fact you choose not to is 100% you and not a fault of the developer of the game…you are the one choosing not to wear the best shoes designed to run the fastest…you therefore need to accept that or run a different race.
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I mean let’s get real if there was no leaderboards based on highest clear and time this would be irrelevant. I know people was SSF but that’s a cop out too.
I think a good way is to have a filter on the leaderboards so you can see everything. It’s not a fix all but I think it would help.
Example: My solo DH has cleared a 120 this season. However I spend most of my time on that character doing speed 80’s to level those gems up, with a personal goal of getting one sub min (close so far) why can’t I see that? I hate this highest clear tbh I wish I could filter by like every 10GRs and see who has the fastest.
My point being mabye your not the strongest because your solo, but you could put up the fastest time on a solid number GR that no power will change it will be RNG as always (lol) and you skill to be able to move at such a higher speed without hitting dead end etc.
This highest clear is stupid because with the power nowadays it’s not who can reach the highest it’s who hits the fastest 150. Which is even more RNG based.
I’d rather there be sections of every 10 GRs and you can continue to push vertically in the latter (higher clears) or move laterally within that GR (faster time) regardless of what clears you have that are higher. (Faster time would replace the previous if same GR level)
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This is obviously different for different people. I certainly also see the opposite.
But yes, grouping is fun on its own. The additional power-benefits, or easy modes, related to grouping, has to go away.
Hell, maybe another reason the solo players are gone after a month is that the current game basically tell solo players to f*** off.
(though, lets be real, the reason they are gone after a month, is that D3 is just a pretty bad game in its current state)
Huh. Why?
Removing all those advantages would enhance group play. Make it more interesting.
Playing on easy-mode is not fun.
Make grouping a tiny bit (<10%) more efficient than solo, to ensure you are not actually discouraging group play. But other than that, the goal should be to make them as close to each other as possible. To the benefit of literally everyone.
Got any data to prove such a claim?
Of course it can. It is called game balance.
That is like saying the game couldn’t cater to both barbs and demon hunters at the same time. It would be giving up on basic game design.
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but the game doesn’t cater to Demon Hunters or Barbs. In fact it only caters to the highest dps set. Great balance. Not to mention cause of whiny PC players wanting MOAR wizard power bet next season the 150 solo seasonal clears will come even faster.
You want to talk about balance where your game is different then ours in very important aspects.
So shadout unless you also play on a console I don’t think you input on balance is valid for us. But I’m not saying leave us I’m glad for a continues discussion, it just won’t come from the right place because your D3 is not our D3.
Probably yeah. But like solo vs . group imbalances, that should not just be accepted by the players. We shouldn’t just just shrug and ignore it, due to ‘more people playing wizards’, or whatever reasoning.
The goal should always be better balance. Both between different sets, and solo/groups.
How does console D3 differ from PC D3 when it comes to solo vs. groups?