From the Barb Community: DO NOT NERF REND

[Free-1746]

Here’s some nifty info to help folks realize why Lamentation should not be nerfed at all.

The following is a not-table that shows the top Season and non-Season clears by class across the North American, European, and Asian servers.

╔═══════╦═════════╦═════════╦═════════╦══════════╗
║ Class ║    NA   ║    EU   ║    AS   ║ Averages ║
║       ║   S/NS  ║   S/NS  ║   S/NS  ║   S/NS   ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ DH    ║ 132/138 ║ 133/140 ║ 130/137 ║ 131/138  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ WD    ║ 135/142 ║ 138/142 ║ 134/138 ║ 135/140  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Wiz   ║ 140/143 ║ 138/142 ║ 144/143 ║ 140/142  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Nec   ║ 138/138 ║ 138/143 ║ 142/142 ║ 139/141  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Sader ║ 136/137 ║ 133/138 ║ 136/137 ║ 135/137  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Monk  ║ 130/132 ║ 130/135 ║ 130/134 ║ 130/133  ║
╠═══════╬═════════╬═════════╬═════════╬══════════╣
║ Barb  ║ 130/132 ║ 130/135 ║ 127/133 ║ 129/133  ║
╚═══════╩═════════╩═════════╩═════════╩══════════╝

This is from leaderboard data taken in-game, by region, on 11/9/2019.

I draw several conclusions from this table.

First, Seasonal data should be discarded. The Triune buff, like next Season’s killstreak bonuses, will result in some truly outrageous clears. I didn’t include Paragon here (though I did note it by clear), but non-Season clears, which represent only the most persistent and well-geared players give us a good idea about the parity between classes.

If we take the average non-Season clears of all classes by all regions, we get 137.7, which we’ll round down to 137 since GR clears don’t round up.

So, the average of all classes’ non-Season GR clears is 137.

How do individual classes compare to that in their non-Season clears?

╔═══════╦════════╦══════════════════╦═════════════════════════════╗
║ Class ║  + / - ║ Nerfed in 2.6.7? ║         If Nerfed,          ║
║       ║ Parity ║        Y/N       ║ New + / - Parity (estimate) ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ DH    ║   +1   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ WD    ║   +3   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Wiz   ║   +5   ║         Y        ║              +4             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Nec   ║   +4   ║         Y        ║              +2             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Sader ║    0   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Monk  ║   -4   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╠═══════╬════════╬══════════════════╬═════════════════════════════╣
║ Barb  ║   -4   ║         N        ║              NA             ║
╚═══════╩════════╩══════════════════╩═════════════════════════════╝

Even with the nerfs, Wizards are still very likely to clear above 140. More important, classes that aren’t getting nerfed are still in the 140+ field: Witch Doctors and Demon Hunters.

3 of the seven classes will clear 140+. Another 2, Saders and Necros, will be on the cusp, and Monk may well be there with the additional buffs to the new set.

If Lamentation is nerfed to 0% (no multiplier) it is a -7 GR loss from the build right out of the gate. If we use the PTR 140 clear as the bench mark–and we will because it is the highest factual clear we have–that lowers the Rend build to 133. Experienced, high-Paragon Barbs may push upwards of 135, making it a 5 tier loss, and perhaps a few will reach 137, making it a theoretical 3 tier loss.

But losing a 200% multiplier is not, as we all well know, a 3 tier loss. And 137 would be, for the very top group of players who push Barb, the current average of all non-Season GR pushes.

In other words, if Lamentation’s multiplier is completely removed, Barbs will be, at their absolute strongest:

• at or below 2.6.6 non-Season GR averages
• 5 or more GRs below WDs and Wizs
• 3-5 GRs below DHs
• 2-4 GRs below Saders

Is this what buffs are supposed to look like? Consider that right now, at this very moment, Barbs the top Barb clear wouldn’t even rank in most other classes’ top 20. Worse, most folks who play Barb aren’t going to push the build to its limits–they aren’t ever going to come close to the GR 140 accomplished in PTR because that took 10k Paragon and perfect gear.

Oh, that’s right. About Paragon…

Here’s a little food for thought about 2.6.6:

• The highest NS WD clear at 142 was with 9k Paragon
• The highest NS DH clear at 140 was with 10k Paragon
• The highest NS Sader clear at 138 was with 10k Paragon
• The highest NS Monk clear at 135 was with 7k Paragon
• The highest NS Barb clear at 135 was with 10k Paragon

My conclusion?

Data isn’t perfect in a game where all these numbers have to contend with GR environments, fishing, gem levels, gear quality, and player skill. What’s more, we aren’t accounting for which builds clear what tier. For example, the 135 Barb clear was done with Vile Charge, one our strongest builds, and a build that relies on “wall-charging,” a gimmicky mechanic in which players get around skill restrictions by repeatedly slamming into walls. For builds that don’t rely on broken gimmicks like wall-charging, the highest actual clear is 130. So, the ability to clear GR 140+ at 10k Paragon is not some crazy outlier that indicates a need for nerfs. It is the new solo standard that almost all classes are approaching or have already achieved, one from which Barbs have been excluded.

[Zymurgeist-1185]

Does she have a friend? Or a grandmother?

[Manowar-2684]

@Infinity-24338

I didnt read all the 1200 postings, only want to say we EU players are also really disappointet about that nerf

Our armies in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales
Our brothers in Belgium, Holland and France
will not fail Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Italy
Switzerland, Austria, Back to the glory of Germany

On a crusade the world we bring
For Kings of Metal For Metal Kings
Death to the false [trolls that] Dance on a string
'Til the blood on your sword is the blood of the king!

@Infeldus-2619

Add Czech, too. Many players from here.

I would love to, but it’s (almost) original
© 1988 Manowar “Blood of the Kings” )

[Infeldus-2619]

Add Czech, too. Many players from here.

[jay-1401]

@Jako-1213

darkpotato pushed WhirlRend pretty high. He got an A ranked rift, maybe almost S ranked rift. Dude had 150 Augments and 10,500 Paragon. WhirlRend was PUSHED ON PTR. We know its potential. Add ~2 GRs because of fluctuation and RNG and potential for more damage.

My thoughts, if he could have cleared higher he would have, just to prove his asinine ‘point’ about it going higher. He didn’t clear higher because he couldn’t with WotW.

Funny how it works whenever 'Sader or barb get buffs, players come out of the woodwork to push to the limit and then ask for nerfs in PTR. WotW, Blessed Shield, Blessed Hammers. Meanwhile wiz clears nearly 10 gr’s higher (or more than 10-WotW) and we never see that in ptr as you accurately point out.

No lamentation nerf.

[MicroRNA-1507]

Using Free’s numbers simplified:

	Average #1 (NS America/EU/Asia)	Notes
DH	138
WD	140
Wiz	142	Being nerfed
Nec	141	Being Nerfed
Crusader	137
Monk	133
2.6.6 Barbarian	133
PTR Barbarian	140
2.6.7 Barb @ 200%	≥140
2.6.7 Barb @ 100%	≥137
2.6.7 Barb @ 0%	≥133

The question really is what this “≥” ultimately means and the magnitude of the wizard and necromancers nerfs.

If the live non-season top clear is 3-5 GRs higher than the top PTR non-season clear (I think there has never been an exception to this rule), then rend @ 100% makes ww/rend barb the #1 build.

@Jako-1213

darkpotato pushed WhirlRend pretty high. He got an A ranked rift, maybe almost S ranked rift. Dude had 150 Augments and 10,500 Paragon. WhirlRend was PUSHED ON PTR. We know its potential. Add ~2 GRs because of fluctuation and RNG and potential for more damage.

You can’t go around claiming WhirlRend can do 145-147 when a 10k paragon player PUSHED IT AND MAXED AT 140.

@Jako and @Laevathein,

You should check out:

Message from the guy who cleared 140 on PTR

So, I have been silent for a moment here, watching everyone using my own words to justify his own point, quoting me, making me say things I didn’t say. At some point, this is pissing me off. I will just go point by point (sorry in advance, my english isn’t perfect). People are saying my rift was perfect and that I was lying about the fact that ww could do 144/5. Facts : this wood is straightline layout, with sewer layout at the start. Conduit came very late. Best mobtype ? Yes. What could e…

Note added: I see Free quotes Ulmaguest but not the thread that darkpatator’s OP with a different view from the person who actually soloed in non-season PTR GR 140. Also, he has now included his new table where he has assumed that 140 is the maximum potential of ww/rend build, a controversial position.

[Manowar-2684]

@Free-1746

Here’s some nifty info to help folks realize why Lamentation should not be nerfed at all

Great job, Professor!
Keep it up!

[Laevathein-2157]

[quote=“MicroRNA-1507, post:1409, topic:5766, full:true”]
@Meteorblade

First. I think the GR clear will be 144-146 based on the PTR and darkpatator’s assessment.[/quote]

You “think”? No, you don’t “think”, you just pull things from what you know. Darkpotatoe assessment? Did he actually do a 145? Nop, he did a 140, with an almost perfect setup, and he barely made it in time, what he says and what you “think” is irrelevant: there are facts, and facts are that he did a 140, not a 141, not a 142, not a 143, not a 144, not a 145, he did a 140.

You say you “advocated for a 100%”, and why and based on what exactly? On non-existing data, on feelings, assessments from a guy with 10500 Paragon who BARELY managed to do a 140 on PTR with 200% but somehow pretends he COULD do a 145, but DIDN’T actually done that 145? On you “thinking”?

People, again and again, have shown you the data, the FACTS, they have told you, they have explained you, how and why you were wrong, and yet, you keep coming back, because you “think”?

No one care about what you “think”, we already know it’s not relevant nor true nor based on FACTS.

(Ok I just don’t get why the quote thing doesn’t work properly)

[Shark-1739]

Subject A: presents an argument

Subjects B-infinity: point out flaws with the argument and provide counter arguments for Subject A’s initial argument.

Subject A: Refuses to address the counterpoints or dismisses anyone else’s argument and continues to post the same argument in different ways.

Subject A: Has an agenda

[Free-1746]

@Shark-1739

Subject A: Has an agenda

Correct. Despite Subject A saying, “I support Barb buffs,” he still goes on to speculate that a 100% Lamentation buff will make Barbs the #1 class. I hardly think so, but even if it did, that is not a problem.

I want to remind folks–and the developers, should they read this–that pure, perfect balance is not going to happen, and that allowing Barbs (or Monks, or Saders) to be the top dog for solo pushes by a few tiers is perfectly okay.

[MeganeSenpai-1314]

Seriously how can they be totaly ok with wiz or wd being top for so many, many years but not barb or monk being not the bottom for one single season?

[Drakiock-1135]

At this point dare I say who cares about top non-season play in judging a build? Just play in the S19 season then figure out its really OP or not.

[Free-1746]

Season themes add layers of power that can’t be replicated in non-Season. As a result, Seasonal clears are heavily skewed by those temporary mechanics. You can’t judge builds by Seasonal clears for this reason, especially Seasons 18 and 19.

Non-Season is the default standard without temporary additions. It’s where you see a build’s or class’s ultimate power potential due to the Paragon and main stat can be accrued. Not saying that’s a good thing, mind you, but that’s how D3 works.

[Sinured-21405]

it seems like the devs mentioned to fluffy that the seasontheme will be “reworked” whatever that means, sounds like more than an angelnerf…

…i hope they don’t overnerf the s19 killstreak theme because it sounded like they also wanted to change the way you get to the lower killstreaks, killing the seasontheme would be lethal to d3 at this point

edit: well not that that will affect me if the barb nerf goes live…

[Prokahn-1764]

Guys you might want to watch this:

Go to 50.

[Sinured-21405]

great so he doesn’t really get that all the buffs to rend are not really on top of the previous ww dmg but it’s almost a new build based on rend with a ww look and more important he doesn’t know how high the other classes performing even with the nerfs to chantodos and thorns…he simply suspects that there was more hidden potential with rend and that now after the nerf it is in place WHICH IT ISN’T…someone ask him if 133gr with 10500+plvl is on par with the other topbuilds -.- wtf fluff

[JEB90-1994]

@MeganeSenpai-1314

To be honest the whirlwind build is exelence for speed and farming, so it’ll be too op if it can be a top push build, too.

Must have missed it when you were put in charge of what builds we get to play…

[Flansy-1510]

He clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Without lamentation buff, WW goes from 130 to 133-137. With it, it goes to 140-144. That’s a massive difference. I don’t know how far he thinks it’s going to go without the 200%, but then again, I couldn’t trust his judgment on it anyways.

[Nemiroth-21587]

Hail, Hail, Hail and Kill!

[Free-1746]

Yeah, it’s just really sad. He’s welcome to his opinions, and I’ve tried to be polite and discuss his ideas, and not attack him as a person, and he’s done the opposite.

Here’s hoping he keeps helping the Necro community, and here’s helping he stays the flip out of the Barb community. “Help” like that isn’t welcome.