Such people will do the exact same in FFA.
And if they genuinely believe that Ploot is to blame for their bad luck… they can just go join an FFA game and see if it goes any better.
Just because you don’t agree with my interpretation doesn’t mean I manipulated anything.
Also the only thing you’ve shown me here is that you are likely completely insufferable IRL. Congratulations.
I agree, thats why i cracked up its funny because its true. Im ultimately only speaking for myself but i feel like anti-plooters are just on defense because of fierce assault to change core game mechanics to something they dont want. Question is who has the courage to budge and take the first step? I feel like if anti-plooters give up an inch plooters are gonna abuse that to further argue their case, instead of finding solution together.
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You left out him explicitly stating that ploot wont be shipped at launch.
So either you didnt know about his exact quote (which i kinda doubt) or you left it out on purpose.
Both cases dont speak in your favor.
But i will try to tone it down, since you are keeping up in being civil for the moment.
And there is the ad-hominem again. Sad.
Not really, in FFA they blame themselves(or a bot/pickit lol) not the lootsystem, when they miss a good drop. Thats a massive difference in human brain.
Its quite simple: Wheres the problem? In me, bots/pickits. Fix? Fix bots/pickit or improve myself.
Wheres the problem? In lootsystem. Fix? Fix the lootsystem, buff droprates or whatever.
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Fix the Human brain… oh wait humans don’t know enough about their brain to fix it. I guess its the lootsystem then because it can’t be me.
Eh, I think I have been very willing to compromises.
Imo the split servers is non-negotiable, since it has far greater implications than the FFA/Ploot discussion.
There should be a 1.14 server to preserve the original game experience from any future change, of which Ploot might just be one of many. Simply the only way to ensure the original experience can be preserved for years to come.
But for Ploot specifically:
- Multiple people have seemed willing to adjust the timer before items turn into FFA
- I have been open to only having Ploot as an option on non-ladder, with ladder being FFA only (though with different servers, this seems irrelevant in my opinion)
- I have even entertained the idea of Ploot only being an option in Private games
- I have discussed the possibility of adding a loot penalty to Ploot, such as if you have 8 players on Ploot, the No-drop is only calculated based on 6 or 7 players, etc. As a way to counter any small imbalances there might be in efficiency between the two modes (I very much dont think it would be needed, as FFA seems likely to be more efficient than PLoot… but if it turned out it was the other way around, balance measures would be justified).
And what do people get for talking about compromises or common solutions?
Usually the anti-plooters then start to claim “look the plooters dont even know what they want, lool”. I am very open to discussing real solutions. But it requires two sides that are honest.
And if you want to point out there are dishonest people on the plooter side too, who have no interest in a discussion… then yeah, of course.
Surely they would not limit themselves to that.
“If only more items dropped, then I would have had more of a chance to pick up one of the items” would be a logical (and even factually correct) thought for someone trying find excuses for why they dont get enough items. That remains true in both Ploot and FFA systems.
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The causal connection is different in those two scenarios i gave.
And on other note i have seen you be willing to look for solutions… but wait till blash or microrna or some other plooters swoops in
Yes, we have been very active to try to improve the ploot system and to find solutions for edgecases or possible abuses.
We have also done so by salvaging the few constructive bits that were in the anti-ploot stream.
Timers and NL-only ploot were actually my additions. (also keeping HC FFA only)
And MicroRNA is quite often supporting the multiple server aspect.
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The irony of this statement.
They made the loot system in the game the way it is and you guys are hell bent on trying changing it.
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Nope. We are not hell bent to change the loot system.
We want an optional loot allocation mode that allows us to enjoy the game more.
The very same mode that the devs themselves have stated that they would probably have added if it had been existed back in the days.
Theorycrafting about things that’ll never happen is fun for all you guys huh? 
To some it is.
To others it seems to be fun to insult people with different opinions or just write non-constructive posts like yours.
It is a feedback forum. We are providing feedback. You maybe agree or disagree with it. But you are not the one to tell people whether they are allowed to provide feedback or not.
I know it is hard to stomach for some of you.
Also it was never said that they will never happen. As a matter of fact, they were even already discussed by the dev team. So quite the opposite of “never happening”.
I guarantee you that many people who would prefer ploot, will still play the game if FFA was the only option. Sure, some will not play D2 (I actually feel that benefits the D2 culture) but many will play and will be forced to play in the same games as everyone else. This does not counter the argument that this change would split the community. Keeping rules as they are actually guarantees that anyone playing D2 cannot split from the FFA community.
False. Adding is inarguably not the opposite of splitting. It is the opposite of subtracting. The 2nd part of what you said is also mathematically untrue no matter how many people you put in either camp:
If a person would not play the game if it was FFA-only then by their own principles would not be interested in making FFA games so whether they play D2 or not, they do not “add” to the FFA player base… they don’t matter in the context of splitting the community. The community as it stands for any official version of D2 that exists in a live environment is FFA-only… that is the community that would be split and it doesn’t currently include people who refuse to play in an FFA rule set, by definition. Again, not even talking about what would be best for the game, just saying that those players do not add to anything the FFA people want either way.
If even 1 single person who prefers ploot would still play under FFA-only rules then this option gives them the option to split from the FFA portion of the community. I’d argue it’s not even a matter of “if” and this demonstrates precisely that it would split the community, regardless of where in the player base that split occurs.
False. The community is not separated. They have a difference of opinion (an inescapable truth when it comes to human beings) but they are not separated in any way in the game or its rules. They literally all have to play in the same games by the same set of rules and there is currently no in-game function that keeps them separated from any part of the community.
False. We’re not not even talking about my argument, we’re talking about your argument #14 that supposedly counters the idea that ploot splits the community. Paying for the game and being as entitled to an opinion as anyone else has absolutely nothing to do with countering the argument that a ploot toggle would split the community in game.
False again. In the context of the gameplay itself, people who prefer ploot and people who prefer FFA are not split in any way. People being at a disadvantage does not actually remove them from the community. They have always needed to make private games or play in public games with everyone else, and that includes those who prefer FFA. They are literally not split, they have a difference of opinion and it ends there.
Again, not even contending that your reasons for wanting ploot are invalid or bad… just saying that absolutely none of the points you list counter the fact that adding a plott toggle would literally split the community in that they would be playing in different public games, not together (as it is now).
You want people to think your 17 arguments counter every possible argument from the other camp but they don’t. Just pointing out that none of those numbers refute the actual argument. If you think they do, you obviously don’t understand what people mean when they say it would split the community. Asking for ploot is literally asking to split the community… how can you possibly try to refute the point that adding it would split the community?
False again. I am not “essentially” doing that so please don’t use your inability to understand my argument as a way to shoehorn it into another argument you think you’ve countered. I’m not “asking” to force people to play FFA, that’s literally the only official way to play D2 that has ever existed. Why would I need to ask for something that everyone has by default? It’d be like asking water to be wet… it already is. I was trying to get Lumpus to stop making identical threads with the same spun perspectives. Now, I’m poking holes in an extremely flawed point in your counter-argument copy-paste because it doesn’t address the complaint people have in any logical way.
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Although the reply is very late…
I actually thought about the amount of servers needed and the increased costs. Right now we assume to have 3 versions but is that all?
We are on a Diablo forum. Yeah, theorycrafting is fun.
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I gotta admit, that is a pretty good post and i am jealous that i couldn’t come up with the same points. Respect!
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Just back after watching some youtube videos and here I see a couple of demolishing counter arguments to ploot again. I guess blash missed them once again. 
It’s quite simple actually. Noone is forcing anyone to do anything. You play the game AS IT IS. Or you find something else to play. Not every game is for everyone, so if this isn’t for you, move on, find something else to play.
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And why do you want to force these people to play a mode they do not prefer?
Yes, splitting the community. Still it will only have a very minor effect given all the different influxes to the community.
Fair point. But what are you more worried about? The community split or the reduced amount of games you see?
I think it is the later and all my arguments apply for the later point. More players, more games. Simple math and the substraction is the aspect of the splitting i thought you were focusing on.
If you are really concerned about the split of the community then i can simply retort with: the community is already split. We do exist. And by not giving us an option you are either forcing us to play a mode we do not prefer or to leave the game. Both of which are not community building but gatekeeping mechanisms.
In the first step maybe. But there are also those who have not heard of d2r and will hear it from a person who played it because of ploot.
Or maybe some plooters will actually try out that FFA mode because some old-timers are telling them that the mode is better.
It goes without saying that with more players the players using one of two modes will increase.
And solo/private game. Which is the case for many Ploot supporters.
They are. Many people are playing solo/private games exclusively because they dont want to play FFA loot.
That is a hard split that we want to overcome.
We would use the very same rules for virtually everything but loot allocation in ploot games. It is a very miniscule change.
[quote=“Mattar-1192, post:249, topic:44833”]there is currently no in-game function that keeps them separated from any part of the community.
[/quote]
There is. It is called private game
It does. Because again the community is already split. Not allowing those who are forced to either play a mode that they do not prefer or to play private games does not unify the community. It creates an elitist leecher-noob-carry-mentality which you can see in virtually every anti-plooter that is posting here.
It is not a welcoming place and clearly there are different views on how the game is supposed to be played.
Creating private games does not split the community? I think you have a different understanding on what a split is than me.
The argument is that the majority of the ploot people are currently playing private games or are not playing d2 to begin with.
So there is nothing to be split about your original community.
Your fear stands against the well-reasoned request for a ploot mode that will provide a game mode that 40-60% of the playerbase (!) prefer.
If you have a cake and i tell you that i want one slice of it, then i am splitting your cake.
But if i add another cake from which you get practically one slice and even more then you will still have your whole cake and i have my whole cake. We both have cake. Yours is “split” because one piece was taken out, but another one has taken its place and is far more happy to be part of your cake.
My cake is also happy (and delicious).
So yeah, you have a split, but it will not affect you in the slightest. If anything you might even get more than 1 slice of cake. So your cake will be bigger to begin with.
So by advocating to keep it you are forcing players to play FFA. That is the logical conclusion of it.
It kinda does though. It is just very shortened because for one, we have written it in a more elaborate way already somewhere else but there is no way to shorten it for a quick read like that list. And for another, you are the first in ~1 week to actually try to work on arguments. So the need of revising the list was not exactly high.
Anyways, nice points, but i still do not think that the “split” argument does cut it.
In short:
Effectively you will be seeing same/more/enough games to not have a reduced playing experience,
the community is already separate in their preferences and forcing people into a mode they do not prefer is not healthy community management.
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