Ethereal lessons for fixing Primals

General Discussion
1

Over the last few years, there have been a lot of suggestions about how to update Primal items in order to make them feel better and more exciting. Recent notable contributions have come from Raxxanterrax and others.

But, I think that the Season 24 theme (Ethereal weapons), which has been broadly well-liked, has really shown the way to do it, which is just by restricting (and altering) the pool of items that can actually drop. Ethereals can only drop with a limited number of Legendary affixes, and most of these (with a few notable exceptions) are useful.

So, what I am suggesting is that they make only certain items able to drop in Primal form, and then separate out this loot pool from the current normal drop pool, in order to maintain the current 1/400 rate of Primal drops.

To explain a bit futher: my feeling is that the game currently rolls to see which item you get before it rolls to see if it is Normal, Ancient, or Primal. Instead, I think Primals should be an entirely separate loot pool, that consists entirely of (more or less) useful items.

So instead of rolling to see what item you get, and then rolling to see the rarity of that item, the game would first roll to see if you are going to draw from the Regular loot pool, or the Primal loot pool. If you rolled the Regular loot pool, you would get a drop just like you do now, with a possibility of picking up any item in the game, except that the item would never be Primal. But, if you rolled the Primal loot pool, you would always get a Primal item that could be used in a build, rather than some piece of garbage like Gift of Silaria or Irontoe Mudsputters.

For instance, the Primal loot pool for Barbs could consist of:

SET
All 6-7 piece class set items
Bastions of Will set
Endless Walk set
Istvan’s set
Bul Kathos set
(Maybe also LON rings, though nobody really uses these anymore)

JEWELRY
Band of Might
Convention of Elements
Obsidian Ring
Flavor of Time
Squirt’s Necklace

ARMOR
Lamentation
Girdle of Giants
Undisputed Champion
Bracers of Destruction
Bracers of the First Men
Vambraces of Sescheron
Strongarm Bracers
Mortick’s Brace
Ancient Parthan Defenders

WEAPONS
Echoing Fury
In-Geom
Messerschmidt’s
Azurewrath
Sankis
Doombringer
The Furnace
Standoff
Blade of the Tribes
Fury of the Vanished Peak
Gavel of Judgement
Ambo’s Pride
Fjord Cutter
Oathkeeper
Bastion’s Revered
Remorseless

CRAFTED
ALL Set + Legendary crafted items should still be able to roll as Primal

BOUNTY
ALL Bounty items (specifically BOUNTY items, not random Legendary and Set items that happen to drop from Horadric Caches) should still be able to roll as Primal

I might have missed something here, but you get the idea. And, of course, they could add or subtract things from this list as time goes on, if new items are added or old ones get buffs.

This change would cut a lot of useless garbage out of the Primal item pool, and help to ensure that when a red beam pops up, you actually get excited, rather than just expecting that you’ll soon be the proud owner of 15 more Forgotten Souls.

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2

Demon Hunter

Set
All 6-7 piece class sets
Bastions of Will set
Endless Walk
(Debatable) The Class Hand X-bow set

Jewelry
Convention of Elements
Flavor of Time
Elusive Ring
Squirt’s Neckless
Obsidian Ring

Armor
Wraps of Clarity
Cindercoat
Zoey’s Secret
Chain of Shadows
Hunter’s Wrath
Frostburns
Aquilla Curass

Weapons
Yang’s Recurve
Dawn
Fortress Ballista
Buriza Do Kanyon
Valla’s Bequest
Manticore
Karlie’s Point

Quivers
Deadman’s Legacy
Bombardier’s Rucksack
Holy Point Shot
The Ninth Cirri Satchel

Crafted Items
All Set and Legendary crafted items.

Bounty
Agreed with Rage.

(This list may be incomplete if Blizzard decides enhance some items like Sword of Ill Will or Leonine Bow and Ememie’s Duffel)

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Good list!

Any Wizards, Necromancers, Crusaders, Witch Doctors, or Monks out there have suggested lists to contribute?

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I find the idea very good. Though, I would go further and remove all 6-7 pieces class set items from primal loot table (maybe not weapons or jewelry pieces like sunwuko’s shine).
I would also remove items with fixed legendary power like lion’s claw.

A quick list for monk

Jewerly
Convention of elements
Squirt Necklace
Band of rue chamber
Bastion of Will set
Endless Walk set
Lon set

Armor
Gyana Na Kashu
Tzo Krin’s Gaze
Lefebvre’s Soliloquy
Kyoshiro’s Soul
Binding of the lost
The crudest boots
Rivera Dancers
Binding of the Lesser gods
Cesar’s memento
Gundgo Gear
Pinto’s Pride
Spirit guards

Weapons
Crystal fist
Kyoshiro’s Blade
Rabid strike
Won Khim Lau
The fist of Az turrasq
Scarbringer
Shenlong’s spirit set
I would remove 2h weapons from this list since they only go in cube

Bounty items
all of them

Crafted sets and items
I fail to find any reason to remove them from primal loot table.

Other items to consider
Cindercoat
Stone Gauntlet
Magefist
Mantle of channeling
Frostburn
Aquila cuirass
The witching Hour
Depth Diggers
Flavor of time
Stone of Jordan
Unity
Obsidian ring
Echoing Fury
In geom
Lion’s Claw
Vengeful Wind
Fleshrake
etc… I already find this list way too long…

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Well, there are some items that are really hard to optimize unless they are Primal. For instance, I’ve been trying, for years, to find a Primal pair of quad gloves (CHC-CHD-CDR-AD) for Leapquake. But if they were missing just 2-3% CDR, but otherwise perfect, I wouldn’t really be able to use them. So being Primal is quite important. And, I have a hard time seeing them make only weapons and jewelry from class sets “Primal-able”, but not armor.

I mean, I guess the simple way of putting it is that I think any item that gets used (and particularly worn, as opposed to cubed) in a competitive build (competitive for either pushing or speeds) should be able to be Primal. That’s basically how the Ethereals work, and I think that system has been pretty well proven to be a success.

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Would be easier to just eliminate the pieces that should NEVER be primal.

Actually, it would be easier to just get those pieces completely out of the game. Just give us less useless legendary items.

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Well I thought about that, so I totally see your point.
But, I think that something like the idea suggested by this post could do the job instead [Suggestion] New cube recipe for multiple upgrades
Though It’s another matter plus I really doubt it will happen at this point.

8

Too many nitche builds to restrict drops.

There was a discussion somewhere about salvaging primals for ‘primal dust’ and making a cube recipe for reforging them. Either recipe 2 or 4. There could be a rng reforge into any other item also if you really like gambling.

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I think that only weapons should be ethereals, being class specific or not.
Other legendaries like pieces of armor, jewelry and off-hands should stay as it is (normal/ancient/primal).

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I can certainly understand that argument, though I know there is a significant group of players who are not meta-focused, and just like building creatively. Completely throwing out every item that isn’t in a “major” build would be really bad for them.

Sure, something like that could work, too, though I think the ramifications of that are less certain. I mean, what I’m proposing essentially already exists, in the form of this season’s Ethereals. And, we know that most people respond positively to that system.

I just think it would be nice if some drops actually get people excited. As it is now, no matter the color of the beam -Gold, Green, Red- you pretty much just assume that you’re picking up garbage. It would be nice if you knew that red beam meant you were very likely to be picking up something good.

I think maybe you’re not understanding the conversation. Nobody here is suggesting that more items become Ethereal- we’re debating about whether the pool of possible PRIMAL items should be reduced, so that you are more likely to find a useful Primal, rather than a useless item.

Ethereals will disappear at the end of the season, which is good- otherwise we would have crazy power creep layered on top of more power creep in the coming season.

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My thing is that this game centers around RNG. That’s what makes it compelling to play. If I knew there was zero chance to get a bad item it would take the thrill away. If every drop was usuable it would be boring. If you put crafting into play to re-roll either the same item, or to randomly create a new one, it would keep the RNG but also add functionality.

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12

Well, there would still be an enormous amount of RNG involved. For one thing, you’d still get a Primal very infrequently. For another, it could still roll with non-ideal stats. And of course you could still find an item for a build you don’t actually want to play.

Again: that’s exactly how it is right now, with Ethereals, and people love it. I mean, you might find an overall great Grandfather, but it has Tribes ability on it, and you want to play Rend. Or, it has the affix you want, but a sub-optimal passive. All of that is RNG, but the culling of the affix pool to mostly useful stuff means that there is a reduced chance of complete uselessness.

As things stand right now, when a Primal drops, the most likely outcome by far is that it is absolute garbage- not “suboptimal”, not “a little off perfect”- just complete crap.

Nobody is talking about removing RNG- just focusing that RNG to make the game more fun and exciting.

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How about primals for items that only have powers? :slight_smile:

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I prefer Primals to grant much more varied materials so when I get a bad primal I smelt it and acquire near enough material for one reforge or a rare item upgrade. If that’s not the option then I rather have a new consumable that allow us to fixate an Enchant rerolled affix to reroll another from the Mystic.

15

What? Why? There are lots of items with useless powers (i.e. Madawc’s Sorrow), and lots of items without powers where being Primal is extremely useful (i.e. almost any set gloves).

That’s… basically nothing. You can get those mats in a few minutes without any difficulty.

What does a new consumable have to do with Primals?

Do you mean that when you salvage the Primal you get a consumable that lets you essentially “refresh” an item, so it’s as though it is newly dropped and any property can be enchanted?

I’d have to assume that such a thing would be limited to one usage, all time, per item (just like Ramaladni’s). Otherwise, people would just craft every useful Primal they have to perfection, and that just seems too easy.

16

Maybe a few Greater Rift keys then? I donno. I don’t think removing randomization would achieve much but I think issue lie within’ the lackey rewards as much as jarring effect of builds.
Even if I find a bad primal I can toss that to the Followers but sometimes it just doesn’t click at all.

Yeah. To be clear, consumable shouldn’t be applicable to items with no affix rerolls and not work on any item with affixes that are fixated by this consumable once. My call is that such consumable shouldn’t be allowed on anything else than Primal Ancient quality items. So the list of occassions you can use this new consumable is pretty small as it is.

For example, you find a nice looking Primal item with a useful affix that you meant to keep already and you plan to use it. You enchant any of the other affixes by Mystic first, then apply this consumable to fixate that enchanted affix. When consumable is applied, that marks the item and enchanted affix would be left out of possible affixes to pick another enchant, and Mystic gonna allow you to pick another affix to reroll.

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17

just increase the chance of primal and you’d get the same effect. In fact, it’s better because you’d also get a few more salvage mats.

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In my opinion the only problem (or at least the only big one) is just that you get basically nothing for an undesired primal. 1 in 400 chance to drop but the reward is equivalent to like 6 minutes of GR’s.

So we just need something better for salvaging them. I think the easiest solution is to just give us a ton of materials (bounty mats and all the others) so it is equivalent to getting a bunch of reforges/upgrades. Getting a Blackthorne’s amulet still feels rewarding if it gives you like 15 chances of reforging to get a primal weapon you need.

Or just the primal dust idea that has been floating around. If you could use it to be able to change another affix it would vastly reduce the chance of a primal being useless because of affixes.

I am actually OK with barely ever seeing perfect primals, just give us a reason to be excited for every beam and not just that slight excitement of o hey maybe this is an item I need.

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19

You have a point there, there is another way to go and that would be to allow us to be able to change the stats at the npc.

If we were able to do that we could create our perfect primal. It would/should require increased cost of course.

I would also like if the ethereals came back as a super light edition, maybe giving a meager power boost compared to a primal. In the range of 3-5%, the only thing I would keep would be the chance for the random legendary power. In all honesty we can live without them, still I belive they could bring a new fun factor to the game.

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i agree, just make possible to roll 2 stats on primals

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