Economics tell us "Why personal loot is better"

Diablo II: Resurrected General Discussion
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In game, every player worked hard to kill the boss, finally the loots are dropped

So who can get the loots more in shard loot system?

High damage player?

The most tank player who protect the other players like ADC?

The player who gave the buff for teammate?

The answer is which player have better mouse, better computer, better internet or better nerve conduction velocity.

For example

There is two compony called “A” and “B”

1.The staff in A compony work hard together, and finally they succeeded.

And the boss gave a big box(a lots of money in the box) to you guys and said “these are the reward for you guys, just take it. I don’t care how will you(players) distribute these money(loots in game)”

  1. Same to The staff in B compony, but the difference is the boss said “everyone can get their own reward, but you guys don’t know the salary(loots in game) about other staff(players)”

Q: Which compony will survive longer in the world

A: B compony is. Because they have the better salary system. And all the company in the real world are using the salary system like B compony.

If people work hard but they have a risk to loss their property/belongings, they will according to the risk rate to reduce their work(people won’t work hard anymore), that’s why we have “Law” “Policemen” “Government” in our world.

Which country can protect the property of people better and which country will be stronger and better!

Same theory in the game. That’s why “personal loot” is the trend at now.

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What a joke of a “”““proof””". I can’t believe terms like ADC were employed as well as a very weak analogy with quick conclusions.

I won’t bother answering anything else than the premises which are already wrong and thus is the easiest way to invalid your “”“proof”“” (note the usage, once again, of three ").

“Better mouse implies quicker looting” → false from a physical standpoint. Even with a high DPI mouse with a high polling rate, the difference with a random, 800 dpi, average polling rate mouse is negligeable compared to each one’s reflexes.

“Better computer” → higher frame rate will provide a negligeable advantage as well. Even If we talk about 60Hz screen versus a 144Hz screen. The drop will pop on at most 16.6667ms (rounded at 10^(-4)) on the 60Hz screen while it will pop in at most 6.9444 ms on a 144Hz screen once the server packet has been received, if we assume the server packet processing time is roughly the same on both computers and thus not consider it. If the framerate is inconsistent (let’s say it drops to even 25 fps), we are still around the same range of durations (40ms), and anyway the game HAS a recommended configuration and YOU should make sure to follow it.

“Better internet” → false. I’ve already demonstrated how a netcode can account for lag. Of course a bad internet connection to the point where you would lose connection is not considered here since it would also affect personal loot in the same way. So we’re talking about high pings and thus latency. Here’s how such implementation I posted on another topic works :

  1. Let a party of N players killing an enemy. Assume that the server keeps track of each’s players average ping p1,p2,…pN.
  2. Enemy has died, drops have been rolled server-side. Time to send the packet to each individual client.
  3. Assume that the dropped item packet structure is made so that a duration is set for the client to interpret as the delay after which the item should be seen as dropped client-side.
  4. Compute the delay to be used on a player-basis, i.e for player J, simply use max(p1,p2,…pN) - pJ and use it as the delay.
  5. Send the packet to every player with their respective delay and voila.

“better nerve conduction” → lmao with such non-sense I can’t wait for you to ask for PvP and ultimately even PvE to be turn-based on Diablo 2 then.

To anyone who wish to respond to this : don’t feed this topic, and let it rot.

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This is D2. The one who can grab the fastest will get the loot. High end players will do specific runs while others wait for things like a baal portal. There’s no one to steal your loot this way. At the end of the day, the richest players weren’t the ones who grabbed the most. The richest players actually got out and kill stuff solo while the “leechers” just stand in town and are good for lowering the “no drop chance” and increasing the monster difficulty.

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Nothing of that makes you worthy of loot. Stop trying to implement some “honest” mechanics where they are not needed.

Being always rewarded by the game is what made games now just cheap dopamine injectors, that give you cheap happiness, but you are never will be full.

“Unfair” mechanics is what makes games great. Just look at Dork Souls. Git gud.

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ninja looting is an iconic part of the game. changing it to make the game easier is a terrible idea. just play WoW or somethin

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make a valid argument why shared loot is better except that thats how its been for 20 years, come on it could be interesting to actually hear something good.

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Assertion:
Your “proof” is wrong.

Proof:
Everything you said was wrong.

q.e.d.

Your whole comparison is lacking any evidence, that this is comparable to players in a game, but let’s assume there is some kind of connection to be made. Even then you completely forgot, that

  • if you give all your employees the same full box, it will lead to drastic inflation
  • if you divide the box into parts and distribute the money randomly, oftentimes people will get nearly no money at all. The less money you get in a month, the more money the other get and that just feels super unfair. This is not needed in a game, in which RNG lets you not find a single high rune in a month sometimes.

Personal loot (without flooding the game with items and making them worthless) leads to extremely long periods, in which you don’t get any useful drop.

Btw, Diablo 3 works with the first example: give everyone the full box of goodies. And you can see, that the inflation in this game is beyond good and evil. A trade system wouldn’t even make sense. (At least the last time I played it)

It is not generically good. But D2 is literally build around it. You had to adjust droprates and you can not calculate reliantly, to which values exactly you have to adjust them, because the value of items influence each other. If you tried to write down N equations (for N valuable items in the game), to balance the droprates, such that with personal loot, all items have the same value as before, you have feedback loops all over the place. Surely not a solvable problem.

On the other hand, if you change the value of items, it will be a different game and no one on earth can predict, how exactly the values would change. One thing though is for certain, namely, what I wrote above: Personal loot with old droprates AND the same amount of drops going to players results in horrible periods (of maybe weeks*), which you don’t get any good loot.

*: You can very roughly estimate, that it is so bad, from thinking about the variance of the drops you get. On average you should ofc get the same amount of loot with both systems, if the number of items stays the same. But the variance (statistical deviation from the expectation value) rises with the number of drops. (See, e.g. “Brownian motion”, first described by A. Einstein)

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thank you this is a better and more valid answer, i just still dont agree with it.
i dont think there is a perfect way to do it, but it could go weeks before a slower player gets any proper items from shared loot aswell. i am not myself worried about not getting loot since i have never had a problem with it, i just think shared loot is a bad game design. on avarage if you play for a couple hours with personal loot you wery much would get some loot, and there is nothing preventing you or others to trade items between the eachother.

what are your thoughts on having the option before creating a game to chose either personal or shared loot?

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Yes, you are completely right. And that’s exactly, what makes it horrible, because with the same droprates and personal loot, it can now take like 8 times (or so) of the usual time to get good loot.

I think, if you want personal AND shared loot in one game, there is only one possibility, namely different leagues. If you combine both in one ladder, it takes like 1 week, until the data shows unambiguously, which system is better to get loot fast. (given some adjusted droprates, or maybe the old ones). That ultimately renders one system to be plain worse to play in, if you want to make progress.

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yes indeed one system is better for players to get loot quick if they scope everything up and leaving nothing to the others.

i would honestly not be against a ladder for personal or shared loot, but i think it would work good together in the same ladder aswell.

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You can achieve exactly that, by running in a Loot Sharing group.

Diablo 1 and 2 let you (to a certain degree) choose, if you want to be a good or a bad guy.

Being egocentric might seem like the better option if you look at a certain situation in isolation.
But as soon as you start to see the bigger picture, working together will indeed start to pay of in the long run.

I think that it is a very important part of the D2 experience to give the players the choice to either work together, or to stab each other in the back.

It just feels very appropriate to have these kinds of interactions in the inhospitable and cold world of Diablo.

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Does this netcode exist in D2R? Do you have evidence that this netcode exists in D2?

Irrespective of the answer, ninja looting and pickit hacks exist in D2 due to FFA. It does not exist in personal loot games. A leecher can never grab all or most of the loot in a multiplayer personal loot game.

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We are still hoping for you guys to stop this mascarade and finally answer WHY you don’t want to do MF runs on your own or with friends, and keep PERSISTING in having personal loot for the SAKE of a far sub-optimal loot plan that is doing public Baal runs.

This is still left unanswered by personal loot beggars and I doubt we’ll ever have an answer considering that, as various people already stated, you guys seem to be part of those got rushed their whole life in Diablo 2. Don’t quote this without answering the question.

EDIT : and no, no one knows if my solution is part of the netcode that D2:R will have. I’m just saying that it is possible and it is enough as a proof. And you know why ? Well I assume you do not because we keep discussing this over and over when the subject is already closed : if you’re going the trouble to develop a personal loot feature, you should instead enhance the netcode to take into account the delay I described. And this netcode enhancement I described is already RIDICULOUS because it only fixes around 6 frame advantage at most at 100ms ping, compared to no lag compensation. So it is RIDICULOUS because your worries about having any internet connection advantage is already RIDICULOUS.

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Why do you keep fightning for Personal Loot, let It stay Shared Loot.
Just be quick and grab the gear that drops on the floor. No one owns It before one of you pick it up.

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Zzz. Never personal loot in D2.

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I’m skeptical of that, because i see literally nothing stopping them from doing so.
but that’s not the point anyways.

the entire reason why people “allow” leechers in thier games, is BECAUSE we are compensated for them, by having more loot… if suddenly you take away that compensation, and dont buff the drop rates, you get the leecher punishing the contributing players in TWO ways, making the game harder and lowering the drops of the players that contribute drops, rather than making the game harder but RAISING the drops of the players that contribute.

all the meanwhile drastically incentivizing MORE leechers, as they get free loot for no work.

what d3 did to address this was to make drops rain from the sky, which is another thing that would be horrible.

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why do you keep fighting for shared loot, would it hurt you to have an option for both before creating a game? no.

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Because I’m a true Diablo 2 fan who loves the game as It is. No need to make a Diablo 2.5, this is Diablo 2. Not a whole new game. I love the improved graphics, Vicarious Visions made a great job doing that.

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im a true diablo fan who admits that its not the holy grail of all games with no flaws. i love playing this game and i would love to have a better version of it even more. you did not answer my question, just ramble on about how just you are a true diablo fan like most of the “shared loot praisers” do.

vicarious visions looks to be doing a great jobb and i wont be mad if they dont change loot, i dont expect them to do it. but that alone would be the greatest change they could make. to have the OPTION to chose when you create a game if you want the old outdated loot system o a newer. just like you can chose how you want to pickup gold or what graphics.

changing this wont make it diablo 2.5
after all, everyone on here have pre ordered the game because they like it. not that they hate everything about d2 and wants a completly other game.
but i hope for some more changes aswell, like for some lesser avaible skills to get buffed and some of the more op skills to be nerfed slightly.

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Aha so you call yourself a true Diablo fan. Did you mean a Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 fan? Lol.

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