They can add new stuff just don’t leave those who don’t have the expansion under powered.
Sorry my mistake ,
Okay so no new items can be better than any old items.
Ok, can’t raise the level cap, no new skills, no new talents
I said better than -a- previous one, but i get it, can’t be better.
Okay so a new classes can’t excel. So if the top speed run build is a new class, cant have it. Cuz they cant be best. They can be worst, but if they are best in any way, oh no.
Right, so when LoD launched and added Pindleskin, Nihlathak, worldstone, and Baal, the highest level zones in the game - np, because they are just more areas. Got it.
Okay, level one characters wearing max level gear and the level on the gear doesn’t mean anything so its all level NULL gear because there’s no reason lvl 60 gear should be less powerful than level 70 gear, even though 70 > 60. And that all means that if Blizzard listens to you Diablo 4 will be an awful game. I think I understand.
lol then you must have realized you were wrong a long time ago:
A short sword is a short sword, why should a 70th level short sword do more base damage than a 1st level short sword
So don’t leave non purchasers under powered, which means power them up just as much as everyone who bought it, and according to @Steve, the method of acquisition is immaterial, so they need access to 100% of the same stuff as purchasers.
Got it, so Blizzard can’t sell expansion packs that actually contain content that is locked to the expansion (so they cant sell anything) because folks cant understand something really, really simple:
A new class who doesn’t excel at anything isnt well balanced. Its a dumpy class that is worse at everything. “They should all perform the same”. Okay, when pigs fly.
Right, so when LoD launched and added Pindleskin, Nihlathak, worldstone, and Baal, the highest level zones in the game - np, because they are just more areas. Got it.
Because weapons doing more damage the higher level the weapon has been a staple of Diablo games since their inception.
Go look at the Normal/Exceptional/Elite item progression in D2.
Dude, I didn’t say a new class can’t excel at anything.
In case what I said here was not clear, balance is where we get a new class that can demolish this new boss or counter this other class but there are parts of the game where the new class isn’t optimized. A high single target DPS, a class with more disables, a tank, etc. They’re all exceptional on something/s and good with everything else.
On the points below, I agree with nick.
The whole point of grinding for more gear is so that you can get better gear. If a level 1 gear is at the same level as a level 70 one then what’s the point of the grind.
Okay, but tell that to the class who sucks against that boss. Tell that to the class that is countered by the new one. I fail to see how a class overperforming in a certain aspect isn’t the same as a new weapon being added in an expansion and locked to it that changes up the BiS meta. Its fundamentally the same - “paid for” content supplanting older content as the best in “X” category/regard. Sorta just seems like you want to allow this exception because denying it would seem ridiculous, which would rend your argument ridiculous, because its logically equivlanet.
And just so you can understand why I responded as I did, here is the flow of replies between you and I:
To which you just reiterated that well balanced classes are fine. Not exactly an elaborate retort.
So I continued on that a new class that is better at -anything- (not everything, even just one thing) than any other class is sold power by definition, and if thats not okay then the only space left is for classes that excel at nothing. If it is okay, then its okay to sell power, even at the expense of those who do not buy it (don’t forget about that old character being hard countered by the new paid for one, or the class that was desired in group acitivity but was replaced by the new one in the new meta). If that’s okay, then its okay to raise the level cap in an expansion, and add new skills only in those levels, because you aren’t taking anything from the other characters - they can opt in or out of the new xpac, and they can compete and group with their likeminded peers, while the new max level people group up and pvp with each other. Each group has gained no advantage or disadvantage comapred to their cohort.
(See above for how a new expansion locked weapon becoming BiS in build and pushing out an old item is selling power, and so also must a new expansion locked character pushing out an old class as the new meta for X activity be selling power, even if X is only one activity among many and the new class doesn’t reign in Y or Z)
Let’s use D3 classes as an example. When Reaper of Souls came it introduced a lot of things in the game,a new act, adventure mode, Loot 2.0, and the paladin. Even though the new act, adventure mode and the paladin was locked behind the pay wall, loot 2.0 was available to everyone. The adjustments of legendary items and set items affected everyone. Everyone could attain the same power level it was just a lot harder for the guys who didn’t have the expansion. You didn’t need to buy the expansion. You wanted to.
Then came The Rise of the Necromancer. The necromancer on release was the most powerful class available. It cleared GRs 9 levels higher than the highest clear of the previous season. It is the fastest character. It can clear hordes of mobs and is also great with dealing single target damage. No one could compete with its power. Most competitive players were using it cuz if you weren’t you will be significantly under powered. If you didn’t have a Necro in your 2-4man party you may as well not try challenging the leader boards. That is selling power. Because the players are feel that they needed to get the necro.
Those players who couldn’t get the necro on launch stopped playing that season and hoped that next season the devs would bring some balance. And they did, gradually, but not by lowering the power of the necro, they brought every other class which led to more power creep than ever. Season after season the numbers kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
I mean, so far we’ve established that Blizzard literally cant sell an expansion to their game.
They can’t add zones unless those zones suck compared to all original zones (otherwise people who buy the zone have bought power).
A class that excels at any one thing is bought power. New classes have to be worse at everything or else its bought power. If they are better at one thing, nonpurchasers have less power in that one thing - bought power.
You can’t raise the level cap and add new skills unless it is gifted for free to everyone (so, cant sell it in an expansion pack).
You can’t add a new end game item that is better than any other pre-existing item, otherwise its bought power.
You can’t add new quests that have rewards, otherwise its bought power.
If you do add -any- new paid content, you have to nuke -all- old content, otherwise the interaction of old and new creates power creep, which is bought power.
Its really fun, thinking like you guys.
That’s false. RoS added new skills that were expansion locked. There were new passives acquired between 61 and 70 (expansion locked). The fourth passive slot was expansion locked. New items that only dropped after level 61 (expansion locked). Yes, level 60 and below items could be found by anyone, and items that were patched were patched for everyone. RoS raised expansion level to 70, and those who didn’t purchase it couldn’t go past 60.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
From Diablo III : Reaper of Souls wiki
Pre-expansion patch
The pre-expansion Diablo III patch 2.0.1 deployed on February 25, 2014, one month before the release of Reaper of Souls .The patch updates the game for all owners of the base game, and does not require ownership of the expansion. The patch changed many game systems, including class skills, difficulty, and the number and quality of items acquired. One of the changes in the patch was a change to the paragon level system. Previously, paragon levels were separated between characters and were limited in number. With this patch, all the previous paragon experience was combined into an account wide paragon level that had no maximum. This allowed players to change between different characters and retain the bonuses between them, depending on the game mode being played.
None of that is contrary to what I said. RoS raised the level cap to 70. A bunch of items couldn’t drop at 60 (61 or higher). You had less passives and fewer passive options at 60 than 70. You had weaker gems at 60 compared to 70… and all the other things I listed in my last reply that you apparently didn’t even read.
I will reiterate that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
As for this - yeah, necro was terribly balanced when it launched. It was better in a lot of ways.
Even if it was only the best at GR pushing, just one thing, and worse at everything else, it would have been “selling power” to most (though not you, because paid for classes are allowed to outshine old classes in one or two areas without earning the selling power slur, for some reason). Everyone would have been playing it because it excelled at the end gsme activity in D3. The only way it wouldn’t have been considered selling power is if it wasn’t gr pushing viable, because thats the metric for how good a D3 class is. So, we arrive back at my point - its only okay to add new classes, according to your definition of selling power, if it doesn’t excel at core game activities, which stands in opposition to your previous statement:
Obviously Necro was grossly overpowered. I’m not advocating in that kind of power disparity. But Selling power? I don’t think so - I think D3 hasn’t been properly QAing buffs/nerfs since maybe 2015/2016, and thats why we got a necro 9 gr lvls higher than the rest. This last PTR is proof of that.
Solo Leaderboards are taken in the context of a single class anyways, and group leaderboards are sort of a side gig very few people care about. A broken, OP necro is therefore primarily competing against other broken OP necros.
I agree, but this is because there was only one end game in D3. If the necro was just the fastest class, great for framing T16 and bounties but is around the same GR or a tiny bit higher (mabye 1 to 3 higher than others) then it would would have been reasonable. The necro wouldn’t have been a requirement to the only competitive aspect in D3. Groups can try to climb the ladder without the necro.
So if he excelled in every aspect of the game, better than everyone else, but better to a lesser degree than he was, it would have been fine?
(D3 is really just speed farming and gr pushing at end game, so if he is the fastest and has highest clears = best class)
Not sure how to reconcile these two things, sir:
Necro being best speed farm, best gr clears is reasonable balance!
Necro was terribly balanced because it was the best at everything - this is selling power!
Strange. By that logic, you can also conclude:
So, if an expansion ships and adds new items for those who purchased it, which make you faster and stronger than any old items, that’s fine.
If an expansion ships and adds new skills and levels, making those who purchased it faster snd stronger than those who didn’t, thats fine.
If an expansion ships and adds new skills for those that purchased it, and they are the fastest and strongest skills, thats fine.
Man, I’m starting to think we’re on the same side of this thing, that maybe expansions should increase power for those who purchase it and play through it, as we have done with so many games before to great success, including every previous Diablo game to ever exist. Maybe adding new levels, skills, talents, items and maps is fun.
Maybe expansions are just a way to add new skills and talents, and raising the level gives you points to spend on them? Maybe expanding the level cap is away for max players to enjoy leveling again as they play through the new quests?
Nah, too crazy.
The full quote for context.
Really? can’t sell an expansion?
care to explain why you have the RoS expansion and necromancer dlc
they have sold plenty of expansion and character class
I think he meant that by our standards blizzard can’t sell new expansions.
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With Lilith being the presented big bad, i think we can expect to see many large patches that are essentially expansions.
Lilith obviously isnt the true big bad, and think theyre gonna update D4 the way they would a WoW expansion.