Hello everybody ! Yeah I know, some people will tell me: “Wtf… relax bro! The main game is not even close of an alpha” Of course, I know that. But the way they build their system (Lvl cap) right now, they might be already thinking and influenced by the futur expansions.
First of all, I have absolutely no problem with Expansions. I like that and I’ll buy them if D4 is a good game. I’ll even buy some cosmectic if there is MTX and if I enjoy playing the game.
There is one thing that worries me and I really do not want to see it in the futur expension. An increase in Level an Power in each Expension (Like WoW. Increasing the leveling cap and the power of everything.) I personnaly think that is completely useless and destroy every previous builds/items if the new level cap bring new items with bigger number and stronger effect. You don’t need to do that and it give you so much work for nothing, because it destroy the previous content.
Instead an Expansions packs should ADD stuff to the existing game like:
New classes (At least 2)
New Skills for actual classes (So new builds)
New boss with new mechanics (Not stronger, just different)
New Legendary with cool effect
New possibles builds
New endgame content
New areas on the map to explore and farm
New system like Enchanting, etc.
Improving actual system like Crafting, Rune word, Gem, Angelic/Demonic/Ancestral Power, etc.
Etc…
There is many possibilities ! Just don’t do like in D3 and WoW. “We are level 40, now you can reach lvl 50”. That’s it. It brings nothing new to the game.
Expansions should add new stuff and diversity to the games, instead of destroying all the previous build and characters we made. I would prefer a really hard to reach level cap that doesn’t move on each expansion. The number itself doesn’t matter to me. 40 or 99 or 100 isn’t important.
I don’t see anything wrong with raising the level cap, as long as they do those other things.
More levels means more talents and skills.
They also added new end game content when they added expansions. I think simplifying RoS to a lvl cap raise and nothing else is a bit disingenuous. They added a new class, new act, loot 2.0 and more end game stuff to do, as well new skills and passives for all classes, plus a fourth passive slot.
This goes against their statement of “We will not sell power” unless the level cap, skills, builds, and legendary items are for everyone not just everyone who bought the expansion. (same goes for new systems like enchanting and other improvements)
I think new classes, location, and endgame are the best option. However, players will still complain that they’re being locked out of content. But at least these things will not give players advantage from those who didn’t buy or couldn’t buy the expansion, especially since there will be PVP.
that IS actually a problem, because it kills the whole balance
to a point where you can just max out your passive skilltree and the game becomes diablo 3
I think this doesn’t mean being able to max the passive skill tree. It’s more on growing the skill tree by adding more branches or extending the existing ones. Kinda like PoE’s ascendancy classes.
Expansion packs are selling power? That’s a ridiculous notion.
New classes are power. New end game is power. New locations are power. Every expansion every released for any game ever then is ‘sElLiNg PoWeR’. They were talking about MTX when they made that statement and you know it. An expansion is not MTX.
You people are frankly ridiculous with how you complain about everything. A raised level cap as part of an expansion is normal.
Equating what I said to infinite main stat paragon (the infinite scaling power creep issue in D3) is silly.
That’s literally exactly what i said:
You chose to interpret it in the most narrow way possible. I said more talents and skills, not “the same amount of talents and skills, but with more points, to where you can fill the whole tree and become grossly overpowered compared to the game lol”. Its amazing the logic leaps people take on this site just to be contrary.
I dont see where its power, to go to an other area and kill an other boss
Or having a new class, that is just as powerful as the others
Thats called content
Power means, you become stronger
Because no game will ever be perfectly balanced and one class might excel more than others at something and then all the neckbeards take to the forum and freak out about selling power.
Somebody might get owned by a new class in PvP and then complain about selling power.
If you add a new class that doesn’t excel at anything then its a garbage class. Precisely 0 arpgs have ever been made where all classes are equal, and yet you just assume they all would be. It’s rather lazy and dishonest.
A new boss might be a source for particular drops that people desire (like in D2 how certain bosses had higher level drops like Baal, Pindleskin, and Nihlathak (which were added by an expansion gasp)). A new zone might be convenient for farming, like if an area had a dungeon like The Pit in act 1 D2, where the monsters were easy and higher level and made for good farming. This zone wasn’t added with LoD, but it’s an example of how adding a new zone could easily disrupt farming metas.
And again, if you add new zones and bosses that aren’t worth farming/fighting, then they are garbage zones and bosses that have added little to no value to the game.
well i think, that the fundamental difference between 2 camps in here
when a new zone, a new boss, a new class drops
i dont want it to be stronger, to give stronger loot
i just want more diversity
ofc, you are always looking for loot, that is going to make your build better and stronger
but thats not necessarily the case, when new loot is introduced
some players will find a way to synergize the new loot with their build, some wont and wait for the next DLC
i think thats an important thing for DEVs to remember
its easy to just sell “new OP weapon”
but it destroys the game in the long run
i actually just didnt read the whole conversation
just the last comments
so we basically just have the same opinion
i dont know why YOU want to argue here
we are trying to convince the devs of something, together
My comment was the first comment, to which you replied. There was no other conversation or comments to have skipped.
I’m not sure we do. I am perfectly happy with them adding new expansions that raise the level cap, expand talent trees, add new skills, add new classes, etc, even if all of that is locked behind purchasing the DLC. If the first DLC that drops raises level cap to 50, adds necro, a new zone, new talents, and new skills for every class that are only available at level 41, I’m 100% okay with it. Is that your opinion?
well in this case i actually interpretated it in a way
“more levels mean, you can learn more skills” (out of the existing skilltree)
so yea i probably misunderstood
im glad, we are on the same side
and grant’s you more power
60th-70th level with all the extra points that you can add to your character that a 60th level doesn’t get
70th level items are more powerful that 60th level items and gives you more power that the 60th level character can’t wield
Why? are you silly enough to thing those 1000 xtra points in main stat isn’t going to make a difference
If they balance the new classes to be at the same power level as the older class this cannot be considered selling power. I know they won’t be able to completely balance to the exact decimal point, but this is why they put David Kim in charge of balancing.
Granted, some legendary items may be added that can only drop from new boss, but as they mentioned in the latest dev blog, they are adding a material which has legendary affix that you can use on rares which can be available to all even if they legendary item itself is locked behind the expansion. This means the build it provides is still available to the general public, albeit a lot more difficult to grind for.
New zones/end game/story can just be more interesting ways to farm but does not necessarily increase power level.
The expansion can still have increase in power but that increase in power is applied to all players. As you said more levels and talents. Players who can’t afford to buy a new expansion now or forever will not be left out in power, they will just not be able to play new content.
I do have one concern about this WOW formula for expansions.
The open world. I hope that every area on the map is farmable - not just in the instanced “dungeons”, but everywhere. To use another game as an example; the POE map is useless for farming as you progress into higher levels. You are required to play the endgame parts to farm.
Having mobs level with you keeps all areas relevant.
No, but you’re obviously silly enough to think infinite levels is the same thing as finite levels. The difference is obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a second or two.
Expansion != MTX, and MTX is what they were talking about when discussing selling power. Every expansion ever has added expansion-locked power. It is beyond ridiculous to equate this to pay to win/selling power in MTX/IAP.
You make it all sound really simple, but it doesn’t reflect reality.
Even if classes are balanced sorta closely, PvP is a whole other ballgame. Certain classes will always be hard counters to other classes in PvP, and if a new class is a hard counter to any other class, there goes your balance. Hell, even if it has a slight edge against one particular class or even particular build, then ‘power was sold’. Again, if a new class excels even slightly more in any one activity than any one old class, ‘power was sold’ by this bad definition of pay to win you all are using.
It could in some regards, but not all, for the reasons i mentioned here and in other replies. If
Lord of destruction didn’t even raise the level, but it still obsoleted characters who didn’t purchase it. They couldn’t access new classes, new class specific items, runewords, the new act with the highest level farming zones, etc. There were no new skills or levels, but still characters who didn’t upgrade were left behind. This was 100% fine.
I totally disagree with you. New classes, new endgames, new areas, new dunjons are not increase in Power. They are additional features and diversities. I won’t be able to kill the last boss more easily because they added a new classe in the game.
A new expansion will never be as big then a normal game. If everything BEFORE the expansion become worthless and too easy, then you only let me the choice to play that new contents, wich is really smaller then the game itself. If instead you ADD new stuff that complement the rest, you are giving me MORE options to do and to play.
Last thing, some new skills point and talent point won’t really change that much the Power of my character. But new items with bigger number will screw up all the previous legendary and balance they did. If they create 300 legendaries and legendary power and add 30 new stronger legendaries with bigger number (because their lvl cap is increased), then the 300 previous legendries now sucks. Instead, if the 30 new legendaries just have new cool Legendaries power (no increase in armor/attack, or more Angelic Power, crit, etc…) that open to new build (not stronger). Now you have a game where you can play 330 legendaries ! Not only 30.
Increase Power with Expansions invalidate and destroy the previous balance of the game. And the expansions will be smaller and less complete than the game.
Perhaps someone who is playing the new class might be able to kill the boss more easily, because the new class has a build that excels against that boss. Or dungeon. Or any aspect or the game compared to another character. Nobody argued that the existence of a new class makes other characters more powerful. That is stupid. I argued that a new class might be better at something, and if it is better at any one thing, you all are screaming pay to win. I’m adding that if it’s not better at any one thing, its sort of a dumpy class.
Okay, but it doesn’t need to have more content overall to add content that lends power advantage to people who bought it. I didn’t argue that everything previous to the expansion will be or ought to be worthless, and I highly doubt it would be.
But it would change the power of your character, and not by an insignificant amount if Blizzard is to be trusted in their statements about items not being the only game in town for character power.
The legendaries that existed before RoS weren’t obsoleted by RoS, they continued to scale up to the new level cap. I am not sure why you think Blizzard would throw away 300 legendaries worth of work because they added 30 new ones.
The 100+ dungeons that you can farm in the base game likely won’t become obsolete, either, like old raids/dungeons do in WoW. They will still be doable and provide appropriately leveled loot for the level you do them at. Why would they make that any different?
Lastly:
We don’t have to and probably won’t agree, but expansions that raise the level cap and/or grant access to new power have been the best expansions I’ve played. Elder Scrolls Online doesn’t raise the level cap and thats nice in a way, but the new sets and trials they add are the sources of the new best stuff - there needs to be an incentive to spend the money to do the new content.
Lord of Destruction expansion for D2 didn’t raise the level cap but added tons of new features that effected player power, and weren’t accessible unless you bought it.
The expansion packs for Grim Dawn increased the level cap and added expansion locked progression, and those were really solid.
I don’t understand all the whinging about not wanting to buy an expansion pack. How cheap are you people? Its how the game will be supported for years, and you are asking to get all the benefit of new content without buying it.
The entitlement is sort of staggering, like your purchase of the base game on day 1 is supposed to keep the game going in year 5. “I’m not supporting the game, and have no interest in buying new content, but I should either be granted access to the same power those who do are, or you better not even add it!”. I don’t know how to take this viewpoint seriously.
