Diablo IV - An Argument for Limited Respecs and Choices with Gravity - Feedback

General Discussion
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I made this post on the D4 reddit as a reply to someone who was advocating a respec system in D4. I would like to preface this by saying that I believe D4 is making many of the same mistakes D3 did, and these mistakes mostly come at the cost of trading CONVENIENCE (what they think players want) for REALISM (what got us all hooked on D2).

Many of the SEEMINGLY arbitrary design choices from D2 actually had the effect of create an immensely fulfilling, detailed, and life like experience. The way things are now D3/D4 come nowhere near to touching it. I would argue that the main downfall of D3 is not the cartoony graphics, but the fact that all of the ROLE PLAYING elements which were painstakingly added into D2 being removed, and the result being that D3 is not an ARPG, it is simply a dungeon fighting game.

Also, remember, many times the most valuable and fulfilling moments in life are hard won, the road is paved with mistakes, and through it all we made it. This is what gives you a feeling of accomplishment, if we all got everything first try, we would be bored stiff… See D3.

I have a lot more to say but without further adue this was my response to WHY respeccing is bad and why it takes away from the role playing experience and enjoyment for everyone:
"
I can see your point of view. Many of those problems came from D2 being an old game and yeah there was a CERTAIN way to play it and you did baal runs got rushed etc. which in this day and age is maybe a bit outdated way of playing a game and can be boring at times.

HOWEVER, I will provide a counter argument. In a role playing game, your choices should matter. And they should be permanent. This is what creates the bond between you, the player, and the character role and archetype which you are playing.

If I can make mistakes at level 70, and completely *** up my character (not completely *** up… but he’s not “perfect” from a skills/talents point of view) thats a good thing. Now I can still use this character for farming, messing around on, and I learned a lesson.

Now when I go and make another character I’m more careful, and when I DO MAKE that perfectly specialised character, with everything in the right place, it feels ***ing good. It feels like a ***ing accomplishment because it takes careful work, time, effort, and mistakes. Not every level 70 barbarian is EXACTLY THE ***ING SAME AS ME because they can respec at any time and THEIR CHOICES DONT MATTER.

That’s something D2 did right. And thats what made it a proper ROLE PLAYING GAME. D3 is not a role playing game, you do not make permanent choices and build your character into a permanent role, D3 is an action smash em up dungeon crawler, theres nothing role playing about it.

IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT. Besides the repetitive grind, and out-dated graphics, there isn’t much D2 didn’t get right. There’s a good reason for everything in that game, it adds to the depth of the experience and the challenge. Sometimes the worst moments in a game (see: ***ing up my level 95 sorc permanently with ***ty stat allocation) lead to much more fulfilling experiences when YOU GET IT RIGHT. When you allow everyone to get it right, at all times, you remove the bond that is built with your character, you remove the feeling of accomplishment, and you remove the role playing aspects of individuality because every one is the same, nobody can ever mess up, and its just a sea of exactly the same 5 classes.

THATS NOT ROLE PLAYING. THE CORE OF ROLE PLAYING IS PLAYING DIFFERENT ROLES. 5 DIFFERENT ROLES IS NOT DIFFERENTIATION.

Happy to go further into this. But there are many things in D3/4 that have been added or removed for convenience (see: the difference in items and the amount of inventory space they take up, health bars above enemies heads and damage numbers) that completely kill the games ROLE PLAYING EXPERIENCE. These things were pain stakingly added or kept out of D2 not to annoy people, not to be a downer, but because they added to the overall experience of becoming immersed in the world of the game. Having to decide what to pick up, having a 2-hander take up more space than a mace, and having a tiny portal scroll take up less space than a book, while annoying, IS EXACTLY LIKE IT IS IN REAL LIFE. When you’re thinking like your character would have to think as if you were there, in person, in plain life just as you are right now, you are becoming your character, you are becoming immersed.

THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT MORE ROLE PLAYING. The role playing aspects make you MORE immersed because its more REALISTIC and LIFELIKE. In real life, a 2H is bigger than a book. Yes it is. Is it annoying when I want to carry around a bunch of stuff? Yes, but its realistic. And just because it isn’t convenient, doesn’t mean it should be removed, it actually breaks the immersion of the game down. Choosing what to and what not to pick up is another CHOICE you would have make if you were there in real life. As I’ve said role playing is about having to make the same SIGNIFICANT AND PERMANENT CHOICES WHICH EFFECT YOUR CHARACTER as you would if you were your character yourself.

Having to stop every now and then to ID *** or go back to town and stash is what breaks up the monotony of just smashing monsters and picking up drops. It required you to take a break for a second, switch tasks, and make decisions. It isn’t fun by itself, but it makes the game more fun and it makes you appreciate *** a little more. It takes a little bit more work, and its a little bit more life-like. You’re making the same decisions your character would have to make if you were your character - ROLE PLAYING - REALISM. There it is. I’m sick of this “we do it for the loot” mantra. Its gross. I’d play D2 WITHOUT THE LOOT. The amazing itemization and choices we had in D2 was icing on the cake to a life like experience that made me feel as if I was truly a barbarian, or a druid, making my way through the den of evil MYSELF.

You do not become immersed in a bunch of light flashing mobs with health bars floating right above their heads and numbers flying around, no matter how convenient this is to “hurr durr maximise DPS” diablo’s health bars literally looked like pumping blood. The immersion was there because it was as realistic as if you were taken and put straight into a hellscape yourself. There were no bull**** extras.

My brother ***ed up his level 75 druid he bought when he was 11. Put all his points into energy. Cried for an hour. Then used that druid to farm and build up another character that was better. If a ***ing 11 year old can figure it out and deal with it, SO CAN YOU. The idea that you can never make a mistake, never *** up, never screw your character means that you take away the amazing feeling of when you do it right. Because its easy to do right, everyone can do it perfectly. And whats the big deal anyways? Oh wah wah you’re not perfectly specced to 100% maximised potential…

Again, just because something is convenient doesn’t mean a game should have it. Think about the experience you’re trying to create. This is barely an RPG as is… Wouldn’t even call it one with the current lack of choice and probable respeccing. I also only have 2 days a week to play games. And I’m still arguing for this. I’m as casual as it gets."

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No really, who made you the boss and why do those rules have to be in place for it to be an ARPG? Just because you do not like no disagree or have a differing opinion about what role and choice mean doesn’t mean that D4 or D3 are not ARPGs.

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Fine, I’ll reply to your sad little comment about minutia such as what an ARPG is. Fact is D3/D4 stripped out and changed many of the systems in D2 which I and others feel were integral in providing us with the role playing experience.

Perhaps you should stay a while and listen, instead of jumping to the other side of the argument so quickly. We’re all here because we want to produce a better game.

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It is the opposite for me. Not able to respec freely destroy my experience in experimenting with my own build. You see, the Internet experience back in the D2 days is different from today. It is so easy to Google for a build and verify the validity through video content. If I am not able to freely respec my character, I would end up just using some proven builds in the Internet and play less (like PoE). I play D3 a lot more due to the flexibility.

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I liked having a cold sorc, light sorc, and fire sorc in D2. I enjoyed having the opportunity to make more than one of a class, leveling them all over again in a different way, and having each one be good at a different thing.

The replayability, multiple ways of building a single class, character creation, and options to differentiate significantly with class skill trees and specialise in certain things really make the role playing game experience meaningful and keep me invested for long periods of time.

I love building a new character and starting from scratch, and if I have one level 40 barb and thats all I ever need to play barb in every single way I find that a bit bland compared to D2 where you would specialise in a weapon, a certain skill combo and if you wanted something else you’d make a new one.

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It should be possible to respec, but it should have a high cost or cooldown.
At least 1 week cooldown.
Not being able to respec all the time means more builds will be viable, when generalized builds can better compete with specialized builds.

Indeed. Meaningful choices are more interesting to make.

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painstakingly:

From, “taking pains” to accomplish. It’s one word. But it’s a conjunction of two words, “pains,” and, “taking.” Painstaking.

He took great pains to design the game.

He designed the game with painstaking detail.

He painstakingly designed the game.

Just FYI.

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I’m not completely against the idea of having skill point respecs either. But I’d like it to be a meaningfull decision of “do I blow my single respec for this 2-4 week period, or just make another character of a different specialisation myself”

Looking at the skill and talent system as is for D4, I’m a bit scared. In D2 you had 3 giant skill trees for each class, each of those trees probably had at least 2 legit specs you could play endgame in each in them, and while not all of them were the “best”, they were all good at different things and had different uses.

I don’t need my MF barb to be the best in PvP. But I enjoy playing for 2 weeks to make a specialised barbarian who wields axes, specialises in shouts and supports MF groups well. I can then make a 2H specialised WW barb who kicks *ss in PvP and use the gear from my MF barb to create a sick PvP barb.

Its that kind of customisation and iterative gameplay that made D2 so great. And I think its really important for an ARPG which is all about dropping tons of loot to have the specialisation options, to have the deep and customised intra-class skill system in order to support 6 different types of barbarian builds which each are good at something different.

There needs to be somewhere for all the loot to go!

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while i did enjoy this part of the game and yes, having 2 of the same class that plays completely different felt like part of the game and if i even messed up on 1 point in where i had to allocate into str, vit, intel, dex, i would have to make a character which i did not mind. i would prefer this choice in d4. however refer to the next person below this block.

the game has kinda gone a different path. at least half the community will be against this. in early w.o.w. respec cost an arm and a leg and now it is done freely at a whim. seems like that is the route many games are going with. would i like my mistakes to be punishable yes i like the challenge, but theres others that have different opinions so hopefully they can find a middle somewhere. as the above mentioned high cost or cooldown. but i have a feeling i’m in the minority as the OP on this topic. sad part is i’m hardcore about a topic like this and would be happy with a middle somewhere but i’m afraid blizzard will cater to the other half or majority on this topic. hey i’m just being real here.

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Choice is the selection of one option over other options. One option is accepted. The rest rejected. Choice is not free selection of any and all options. Your differing opinion conflicts with the basic, widely accepted definition of choice. You’ll lose the fight with the dictionary every time there boss.

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I have to stand in the middle here
Respecs but with such high cost, you can only change/optimize your character
Not play several builds parallel.

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I understand your argument just fine and well. It is no different than many others here have said. That still doesn’t make what happened in 1996 and 1999 the definitive definition of what an ARPG is.

Fact, D3 and D4 both haveaction oriented gameplay. Both will have designated roles a player can choose from in the form of classes. With skills/talents one learns along the way, typically while leveling up.

You do not need hard choices to make while making a build, complex systems, talent/skill tres, punishing death penalties, or the inability to respec easily to make a game an ARPG period.

Now, you may try to belittle me and other by calling my argument sad or your probably made up story about your 11 year old brother to make others appear as if they are dumb and/or incapable of following had or complex systems and design choices. But you and everyone else who thinks like this are wrong.

The beauty if all this is that every Diablo game, PoE, GD, Lost Ark, allnthe other Korean jank, TQ, the crapoy Warhammer games, and 100s others are all ARPGs and all are quite different than D2. Some have similarities, but each game is it’s own unique experience with the ARPG genre.

If we stuck to your rules, every game would be the same and the genre would die from stagnation.

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I’m with Lolli on this one in that I support respec but at very high cost so you can’t simply respec on a whim and there is value in having multiple characters, but it is possible to change to fix a few mistakes or if you decide the build really just isn’t working for you.

I’d argue that there isn’t as much of a bond between your character and you if you’ve abandoned it because you made mistakes and it’s so trivial to roll up a new character like it is in Diablo 2.

I have more connection to my Paladin from WoW than I do to my first Paladin in Diablo 2 that I messed up the build of. I played my WoW Paladin for MUCH longer, while I had rerolled and abandoned my D2 Paladin before LoD was even out.

Personally I get enjoyment out of figuring out the mechanics to find the optimal setups. I don’t get much enjoyment out of following the already figured out plan to create a perfect character. In this case the journey is far more important to me than the destination.

and I get the journey even if you allow me respecs that are hard to get.

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That is your opinion. That is not a hard set rule. Some games make it that, others do not. Neither is right or wrong. Just different.

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The basic definition of choice is not an opinion.

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Couldn’t care less about my bond to my character. It is just a means to an end. Again, I view video games differently than PnP RPGs. Always have for some reason.

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Again, I choose to use certain talents. The next day I choose to try something different in D3. Seems like a choice to me. I have the choice to build my character differently as I see fit because the game allows me that choice. No matter how you look at it, it is still a choice.

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I think any reasonable person who enjoys RPG’s would agree with this. But some would like to change the definition of RPG or even choice to suit their preference.

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Gotta snicker at selectively clinging to realism when it’s hardly realistic for people to not be able to learn new tricks after learning something else. I mean, at this point, you anti-respec chuckleheads may as well be asking for 1 character per account with no respecs ever because meeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaannnnnniiiiiiinnnnnng.

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The only thing you have chosen to do is to utilize free selection on a different day and fool yourself into thinking you made a choice of talents.