Diablo IV - An Argument for Limited Respecs and Choices with Gravity - Feedback

General Discussion
21

Sorry you got offended, not trying to beat you up or belittle you. The story from 13 years ago about my 11 year old brother is true and hilarious. And I think its an important lesson to remember about games. People may say they want everything handed to them but they don’t. Even my brother who had all those awful experiences in D2 has tons of great ones, and was let down by the release of D3.

With all due respect, its been my impression that while game sales were good, overall D3 was a failure and failed to keep an active playerbase long term. Many of the successful releases Blizzard enjoys today are because of the legacy which the original Starcraft, Diablo II, and Warcraft III created.

With that being said it was also my impression with the release of D4, that Blizzard realises it made many design mistakes, and wanted to actively engage with the part of the community that felt D3 let them down, and try to correct and identify the differences between D2/D3 that let this significant portion of the playerbase down.

I dont have the numbers, I don’t know whether D2 or D3 was more popular from a dollar, time players, and amount of sales perspective. I know that D2 was a game I and many other played for 10-20 years, going back time and time again, because of the design choices and care that went into its design.

With all due respect I believe that people who like D3 over D2 are:
a) Too young and lacking the experience to know what they’re talking about

and

b) In the minority.

I don’t understand why Blizzard would come and try to make another Diablo that is more alike D2 unless they’ve identified that this portion of the market is valuable to them and they want to listen to their ideas and suggestions and make those changes.

If you like D3, keep playing D3. Just like I kept playing D2 for the last 20 years despite a new diablo, so can you.

I think its our turn now for us to get what we want, you have Diablo 3, and many of us have been waiting 20+ years for a real successor for D2. So let us be happy too for once and wait your turn for the spiritual successor to D3, if thats what you want.

6 Likes
22

I view games differently depending on what game it is.

My guess on the PnP thing is that it’s because pen and paper offers a level of freedom that is simply not possible in a video game.

To be fair I’ve heard a lot of varying definitions of just what a RPG actually is over the years. In my experience, most people have a different idea of the definition of RPG.

Mostly because you can’t use a literal definition of “A game in which you play a role” , because that would be literally every game ever.

Diablo also further muddies things by being an action RPG. I would argue it’s got a few mechanics that are anti-RPG like abilities which have to be manually aimed.

Not that I agree that respecs should be like they are in Diablo 3, but I do understand why some people want it that way.

2 Likes
23

To me a permanent skill tree or stats don’t reflect reality. In reality you can always work to change your specialization. I do think there should be a significant penalty for respecing. Like the new skills are weaker until you kill enough monsters to power the changed skills up. Or you have to quest/kill to change just a few stats. I don’t think permanent is necessary at all. I just don’t like the easy skill and stat change.

6 Likes
24

I agree and am on board with this. By taking the hardline permanent stance it allowed me to better articulate the value of meaningful choices etc. but it doesn’t have to be so completely soul crushing.

I like the idea of small optimisation/enhancement changes. But never being able to do everything with 1 character.

1 Like
25

Respecting isn’t a problem, but it does short circuit some redundant play.

I’m all for it.

See guild wars 1.

4 Likes
26

It takes 10 years in real life to master a skill. At least. Now it shouldnt take 10 years in a game, but flipping a switch and becoming a “Master of Polearms” in 20 seconds, simply because your character is level 80 mcGod takes away from the gothic realism of the series. Where you fault through gauntlets of creatures, slowly building up your skills and attributes and getting better, just as you would in real life.

It is more realistic. And it adds to the experience.

2 Likes
27

And this usually where I’d say we have to change how our characters grow, then. A skill point for a level is antiquated and obviously a source of controversy when it comes to this topic. However, when presented with the choice of something like D2 or PoE compared to D3, I’m going to pick D3 every time even if I think it an imperfect system on its own. And it’s not because I’m some young gamer who doesn’t know better or a suspected minority. There just comes a point where I identify grind for the sake of grind in games nowadays and refuse to conflate that with depth or guilt trip people into thinking my own personal journey is somehow supposed to matter when all they’re gonna care about is if I’m not a leech in the group.

8 Likes
29

The complexity for the sake of complexity argument is almost always an indicator of stupidity, laziness, or entitlement.

1 Like
30

mate having a goofy polearm sorc who played hydra and wore a bunch of gear with barbarian shouts was part of the alure of diablo 2.

games these days have become so serious, they have to be fair, they have to always be balanced, nobody can lose anything or they cry. Its so completely whack and shows you the soft generation we live in.

Games used to be about having fun. And laughing. If everything is perfect, you can never make mistakes, theres no real choice, meaning, or differentiation between characters and you cant make wacky builds wtf is the point.

Games used to be about being fun now its all about not hurting anyones feelings because people are so weak and want to appease everyone.

3 Likes
31

I’m also digging this idea for some time now
Skills could have a kinda experience bar and when you respec, it resets
This way, you can’t just flip flop and use the next build for the next dungeon

1 Like
32

Not sure whos arguing complexity for the sake of complexity. D2 skill system was a lot more complex than D3 but also a lot more fun IMO.

Role playing games are complex puzzles with choices and not everything is perfectly balanced. Can a bard kill an assassin? Probably not but he can play some cool songs and has his own strengths and weaknesses.

Nowadays every class needs to be able to do every thing to the same level or its not “fair”. What you really do is kill all creativity and kill all the uniqueness by making everything the same.

1 Like
33

I wouldn’t really call it grind for the sake of grinding. A choice is ultimately rather pointless if the choice doesn’t mean anything. If you can change that choice on a whim, then that cheapens just how much that choice actually means.

It’s not really a mechanic that itself provides depth, but can be used to increase the depth provided by another system. It means you can’t simply adapt your character to any given situation to negate all your weaknesses. You have to instead play around them.

Of course it relies on a decent character customization system being there in the first place, otherwise it doesn’t do a whole lot but it does enhance that customization.

I think we lost something in RPGs when developers decided being able to make mistakes in character building was a thing that shouldn’t exist in games. It’s not a thing that should intentionally be there with things that exist for no reason except to be newb traps, but it’s something a well designed system should allow for,

34

No one’s saying you can’t do that, either. Your inability to stick to your guns and not feel tempted to later respec when you find out an experiment is garbage is a you problem. Meanwhile, everyone else who’s done the early game a dozen+ times isn’t going to be enthused about doing it yet again for some fleeting fancy of an experiment. Where you see people complaining about feelings, others see people having the audacity to respect the time of their peers.

10 Likes
35

Ive made 100s of diablo 2 characters from scratch and played beginning to end 100s of times. I disagree. If the character building experience is fun, deep, meaningful and the gameplay experience is addictive, you wont stop.

2 Likes
36

In real life once you master one of those skills it makes it very easy to master new skills. If you master Karate you will have an easier time learning other disciplines like boxing or kung fu. If you master surfing you will learn water skiing, snowboarding or body surfing quickly. Archery can improve your fire arm ability with a steady hand and eye coordination. A lot of skills are transitional between disciplines.

In real life a G.O.A.T would take 10-15 years to produce from the starting ability of “competent.” We shorten it to a few weeks in these games. so if each week represents 5 years I would estimate that a skill shouldn’t take more than 3 days to respec and power up to full efficiency.

However these are magical quests. These characters are gaining power through divine favor and hardwork. So at that point it’s like a “chosen one” and “unlikely hero” thing going on. They ascend to GOAT status in what I perceive as a year or two.

2 Likes
37

An RPG with no respeccing has no meaningful endgame. Period. I shouldn’t be forced to do hours and hours of research into the perfect build before I even start playing the game.

I should be able to jump in blind, have fun, make choices I enjoy as I level up, then when I hit max level and want to get serious about endgame I should be able to reallocate my stat points the “correct” way so that I’m not screwed. If all build options were equal in potential and perfectly balanced this would not be an issue, but they aren’t, and so respeccing has to exist.

8 Likes
38

Another garbage argument. Just because it’s available doesn’t mean you have to use it. Rooted purely in entitlement.

39

I disagree, if youre so serious about end game performance as your definition of fun in a videogame is “making the perfect character from day 1 which is absolutely optimised from head to toe in every way” which youve just said it is, then yes you should and will have to do hours of research in any case.

If the only way you can have fun is to be perfect and the absolute best, then yeah you can put a couple hours into research buddy and it will pay off.

3 Likes
40

You’re free to play that way if you want. I’ll use the respec that will be in the game, because that’s how I have fun.

8 Likes
41

I’d argue once you have a “correct” way of speccing then there isn’t even a reason to have stat points in the first place.

Just have the system automatically put them in the correct choice. Everything else is merely a newb trap at that point.

5 Likes