Diablo 4 - Please don't implement paragon levels

Does he think paragon level is tied to a character or he just doesn’t care about the detail at all?

D3 paragon system ain’t even different than that. At D2 at least I can decide if I want a cookie-cutter or a different build.



It’s like there’s a competition to try and bring back all the outdated features of D2.

As for the topic in question, the game needs a way to improve your character that is not tied to the RNG of item drops. The best thing about the Paragon system is that it’s a way to slowly improve my character every time I log in. So yeah, D4 needs a Paragon like system.


The major problem I see with infinitely scaling power is that it’s a double edged sword - you also need infinitely scaling difficulty, else, in time everyone will be incredibly overpowered for the games content.

You might as well bring back GRs too, then. Or something similar, with infinitely scaling difficulty. :man_shrugging:

Not too sure if xp loss on death is as outdated as people think it is. It definitely raises the stakes and adds to the tension when navigating content that the character isn’t just steamrolling. A little bit of consequence for dying feels more “diablo-esque” than having none at all.

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No paragons please. It doesn’t add any value to the game.


its outdated, because games nowadays don’t make it painfully long to get to max lvl… Honestly at lvl 98 in D2 you could do 9 hours of baal runs for five days in a row and you wouldn’t be any closer to lvl 99. Getting to lvl 99 was useless anyway

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Sure, but why stop there? Maybe we can make a game where if you die in the game you die in real life!

I don’t need to lose experience upon death to not want my character to die. Dieing is already a waste of my time.

We can agree to disagree without the unecessary snark. You don’t want any additional consequence for dying in the game, while others think that xp loss upon death is actually a welcome challenge.

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But what challenge does losing exp upon death add to the game besides wasting your time? At most you can delevel and lose an important ability that you need for your build, but then the solution is to grind the experience back.

The challenge of the mob or level isn’t changed.

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I can see how it might change some of the gear/skills/playstyle choices you’d make. If death is just a literal bump in the road, go glass cannon, max out your damage and look to clear the entire screen before anything touches you or hits you from range, and if something does, well, no biggie, right?

If death is an actual setback, then what? Is the faster clearing speed of the glass cannon style making up for the exp/time lost by dying. Or do you go maybe not so much DPS, more toughness/dodge/recovery, slightly more cautious playstyle, different skills. So not clearing as fast, but not dying much neither.

Not saying one is better than the other, can just see the merits in both.

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From what he said it seems he wants character progression with CHOICES after max level. This implies it won’t be infinite progression like paragons. Paragon is just guaranteed stats on a timer, not choices. What he is suggesting implies it won’t be infinite like paragons

That’s better then letting one set determine your playstyle.

I belive that the problem with Paragon levels was what it added stats to , which was small buffs like 5% to attack speed or something similar.

I am quite certain doing literally anything else is an improvement from having 10,000 paragon levels. That is like saying ‘please bot my game’. I wouldn’t worry about this.

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Just as well we have 28 then - and more coming, plus the LoN/LoD builds.

The Paragon system in D3 is flawed and boring - all it does is give a sense of progression (which is important). Being able to use paragon points in a way that specifically improves your character’s build or playstyle, not the generic +5 mainstat, is what D4 will need

Scrap Paragon Levels and bring back the hard level 99 farm from D2.

Most people never reached 99 with a single character, so people who like this form of endgame content can just XP farm for normal levels instead of paragon levels.

The difference is, that it doesn’t create such a huge power difference like the paragon system in D3.
A level 99 character was barely noticeably stronger than a level 95 character and especially with PvP coming back in D4 paragon levels like in D3 would cause some serious balance problems.

The way levels got handled in D2 worked perfectly and I will never understand who thought that it was a good idea to replace it with that paragon nonsense in D3.

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Loss of xp isn’t usually a thing until you hit a certain difficulty. I kind of think it adds a challenge in that it forces you to rethink parts of your build. Perhaps you’ll have to sacrifice some damage output and opt for more defensive items. Just an example but I definitely think it’s a good thing anytime you give the player choice.

LoN is a good example, it’s not viable in the end game for all classes. You can’t focus on one skill you have to cast a series of other skills because that’s what the dev approved sets tell you to, i’m happy for you if you enjoyed them (i enjoyed UE), but one playstyle per end game set theme is awful balance. Besides, You’re missing the point with your last post, it wasn’t just “enough str to equip gear, and everything into vit” it allowed you to prepare for weaknesses in the class, it allowed for pvp builds.

I am fine with paragon levels as long as it is toned down. Maybe perhaps 100 levels only? Each giving you handful of stats and some other bonuses? It should be per character and not per account imo and getting to 100 should be harder than getting to 99 in D2.


For me, its not that xp loss upon death is the challenge itself, but the consequence of fighting a mob or playing in an area that you are not properly geared for or prepared to undertake. It adds that additional layer of cautiousness that makes the game more exciting. Raises the stakes if you will, and adds satisfaction when your chatacter survives certain situations. It also encourages more intelligent gameplay, as opposed to, lets say, repeatedly flinging yourself at a challenge without making adjustments and hoping to get lucky X number of times. That situation makes the game a bit less scary (less terror) if you will. If properly implemented, xp loss upon death shouldn’t be too punishing that you lose skills or such, but provide a welcome respect/fear for the monsters that populate the game world. Something that imo supports a horror flavored game’s potency. I understand that people may dislike this and some may welcome it. Just agreeing with the guy who mentioned that he would like it added back and seeing that its not such a bad idea when a lot of people want to see the game return to form into a game that is more impactful and with less handholding than d3.

It is important that a player always feel they made progress in a game about gaining power.

Level/ experience system is the most constant method in a pool of RNG. If you play for 2 hours and never picked up an upgrade in gears, then you will find the 2 hours wasted. With a leveling system, you know you are at least moving towards new levels.

The concept of paragon is fine imo. What we need is better system. Maybe a talent tree like system.

PoE has the worst kinds of progress gating.

  1. Grind gating, 10% experience lost on death, reduce exp on lower levels, massive experience required to gain level after level 90.
  2. RNG gating. map Levels required a currency called map rune. They are RNG. Even if you beat T1, you cannot access T2 until you have T2 runes. The higher the level you do, the harder it is to “sustain” maps. To access the Uber lab to gain final 2 acsendency points. You have to do 6 different trials. They opened in random maps, and you can have repeated ones.
    If you play solo, you can be Wellington your late 80s to 90s and never complete the trials.
    Thankfully there are bandaid solution if you willing to group. Wait at chat channel and hope some good soul has a portal to a trial that you need to compete.

Want to craft some cool affixes. The best ones are locked under you guess it RNG.