Diablo 4 - Please don't implement paragon levels

Saw in an interview with one of the lead game devs of D4 (Joe Shelly, i think) that the same philosophy that underpins paragon levels continues to be important to them, but they are not sure of the exact implementation yet.

Please no more paragon or paragon-like feature in D4 :frowning:

Its a bit concerning that they still love the idea of a paragon feature and are leaning into adding some sort of version of it in D4. Concerning because it signals that they don’t have a strong enough vision for the endgame in terms of the meaningful activities a player can do after beating the game other than just accumulating paragon levels (among other things that have been tried already in D3).

Why is a paragon-like system even needed? So that people can have a badge of how many hours they’ve spent getting more xp after hitting max level? It doesn’t seem as a well thought out way of getting people to play more after beating the game.

Before it becomes too ingrained into whatever they’re building, i’d like to just point out (and i’m sure others have probably communicated it better elsewhere), that there are better alternatives that help put meaning into the endgame than infinite levelling after hitting the basic max level cap.

PoE’s map system for example is a great endgame, or how the loot in that game ties into the trading economy is also another example of how to encourage folks to farm more of the same, and actually help out those who don’t have time to grind it out but want to try to get the items they need to try out a build. It’s elegant really. Paragon is ham fisted when compared to those systems.

For D4, instead of paragon, why not just allow people to perform more granular improvements to their chosen skills/talents or their gear via ability to farm consumable items that can increase their effect by a small margin instead? For example, items that increase the duration of a skill/talent like the freeze effect by a small amount, or increase the value of a specific affix on an item? Let these items drop from specific elite monsters that spawn in certain areas to encourage usage of all zones/regions on the map. Allow these items to be tradable so that if a player doesn’t particularly need or like the affix or talent that the consumable item improves, then they can trade it for something else that they need.

That way, people could have a chosen focus in the endgame on improving a build that leverages on the effects of specific skills/talents that they like playing, and rewarding them for grinding out the search for items that allow these granular improvements to skill effects, items, runes etc, and support a trading based game as well.

IMO, paragon levels were bad for D3 as a whole because it was one of the less creative and mundane ways of continuing progression after hitting max level. It’s current form in D3 doesn’t tie into a trading economy either, which they plan to include in D4.

Hope this opens up more discussion for them to get some inspiration/ideas from, instead of just pursuing more of the same from Pagagon.


Yeah paragon leveling is a horrible idea. I’m disappointed they are leaning toward 40 max level where everyone gets to instead of 99/100 where only some ppl reach.


Well… they never said anything about infinite levelling after hitting basic max level cap, and your whole post seens to indicate that you believe that “philosophy that underpins paragon levels” means just copy pasting the whole thing.

What I read as “philosophy that underpins paragon levels” is some sort of character progression that continues even after level cap. That can mean absolutely anything and they clearly said that they have no idea how they will do it yet.

A lot of what they showed seens to indicate that they know what people like and don’t like about D3 (like how many times they stated that they want to avoid sets being too powerfull) so I’d be that they know the distaste for the current paragon system that the community has.

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I don’t mind Paragon in concept.

You reach end game, you want to do more difficult content, but you’re geared out and max level – the growth part of your character abruptly stops.

Paragon as an infinite scaling remedies this, but I think it was too easily achieved and too beneficial in D3’s implementation – and far too contained.

My ideal “Paragon” would be growth on a curve that is VERY difficult to earn even a single point from, but that 1 point can go toward improving nearly ANYTHING – character, skills, talents – but in significantly less increments.

For example, I could maybe put a Paragon Point in Hydra of all things. And not just Hydra, but Hydra’s rate of fire or fire damage, or even reduce its cost, or increase the duration it stays out. The increments would be little by little. +0.1 seconds per level, +0.1% increased attack speed. Things like that.

That way Paragon additionally contributes to customization, and isn’t just pure instant power creep. We wouldn’t all be dumping our points into the same thing. It would also help less efficient builds shore up over time, letting even casual builds handle end game content (eventually).


Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure they don’t do a lazy job of it all :slight_smile:

paragon is actually cool, but make it without benefits, just cosmetic stuff, rank or somthing.

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The paragon-like system doesn’t need to scale indefinitely… could just be something like “movement speed 0/20 points” and stuff like that. Just simple mods that could free up one gear slot for a better item.

Paragon as a way of progressing your character when you’ve pretty much maxed out your gear is fine, it’s the +5 mainstat / vitality where the problem is.

This kind of implementation would be much, much better.


this game have the same crap core system of d3 so limited


Yeah watched the question. It isn’t paragon that they are thinking. They are thinking an extra progression your character goes through where your choice matters after hitting max level. This implies it won’t be infinite which was my main concern. If it was infinite it wouldn’t be a choice. It would just be extra mods behind a timer.

Yeah, they need the awesome “enough strength to equip your gear, everything else in vit” depth and theorycrafting complexity of D2’s system.

I am fine with paragon as being yet another way to fine tune your char., I would ask for a paragon cap to be implemented and more option and not enough points under the cap where you can select every option.

OP is right; for the love of all that is evil and for the sake of Diablo as a whole please please please leave paragon leveling out of Diablo IV.


Do not bring paragon back please .

What i’d like to see is xp loss on death again. I know they mentioned 40 being the level cap but its early im sure that’ll change. IF not then hell it will have to feel like grind then to get to 40 because d3 70 is like barely anytime.


The paragon issue is a symptom of the immense power creep of D3 in the last few years when the early levels are tuned around level 60 characters. If every paragon level is meaningful and reaching 100 takes forever instead of a few minutes then I think the system is fine.

99/100 is basically the same as paragon. Just endless grind of xp.


I sure hope not. No more endless exp grind.

It’s Not even close. One is infinite progression and the other is limited progression.


This is from a Game Informer interview with Allen Adham at Blizzcon:

Is the paragon system coming back?

That’s a hallmark of Diablo. I have close to a level 600 paragon demon hunter. We love the idea that people who love our games can play for hundreds, even thousands of hours and for Diablo, the paragon system is central to that.

So, love it or hate it, we’re getting it.

Aw geez, i hope they modify it enough that its not going to be the same mindless accumulation of levels that it is in d3