Demon Hunter players, what do you think about these changes?

Demon Hunter
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I am currently in the process of creating feedback in visual form, but before I post the final version of it, I would like to hear your feedback on the changes that I propose, so I eventually can make certain adjustments to it in the final version.

So let me hear your thoughts.

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Double the Hatred cost, but also double the damage, which makes using Elemental Arrow feel more impactful.

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Instead of making Elemental Arrow generate Hatred, Kridershot could massively buff Elemental Arrow’s damage (in this example by 400%), or both.

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The damage multiplier to Elemental Arrow on Augustine’s Panacea could beincreased from 200% to 300%, and Ball Lightning could gain an additional 100% increased damage, instead of just reducing the travel speed of Ball Lightning.

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Damage doubled from 400% to 800%, but also halved maximum stack size.

This is a buff because it would reduce the time it takes to get the maximum damage increase (which still is the same, but you would get there faster).

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Elemental Arrow could need some love, that’s for sure. So every effort to improve EA is appreciated. But I don’t think that your proposal would be the right way to do it. The main reason why I believe this are hatred issues.

Maybe it’s only me, but I really do like EA during the leveling period. It’s a nice attack with rather low hatred cost, with a good AoE. I often switch between Chakram and EA, depending on my Elemental damage and/or other Items I find during leveling.

Doubling the hatred costs would make it less useful, imho, even if the damage is doubled.

EA generating hatred with Krider is also a great effect, imho and very useful in the early game. With your proposed changes, we would get serious hatred issues when using EA as a main attack, even in mid-game or end-game. Most other skills have a “RCR-Weapon” of some kind, which still needs to be combined with 10 hatred/second through dawn in many cases.

  • UE/ Multishot: Yang
  • M6/Cluster Arrow: Mantikor
  • S6/Impale: Karlei

So, if you double the hatred costs for EA without providing an item with ~50% rcr (at least), I don’t see how it would be a useful improvement for EA. Krider with 400% more damage and 4 Hatred/attack could be an option though. :bow_and_arrow:

Regarding LGF: I really don’t like the original effect, and I never played the builds around it. I only use it to oneshot elite packs on my way to level 70 in season, if I got lucky and didn’t gamble Karlei from the cube. One attack every 30 seconds is totally boring, imho. Reducing this time to 15 seconds doesn’t change much. But yeah, why not?

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I see your point, so thanks for that feedback.
It probably is a matter of taste.
I for one, like this ebb and flow of resource and the phases of generating resource and then spending it, instead of just mindlessly spamming a single skill.

Instead of increasing the damage and the Hatred cost by 100%, what about 50% for

  • 15 Hatred
  • 450% Damage

…? Would that feel better? It at least would be a middle ground.

But in the end you are right. Perma-spamming a single skill is just how the gameplay looks in D3.

Since a buffed Elemental Arrow would likely be used in combination with the Natalya set or the Marauder set, such a build would likely use Vengeance + Dawn anyways for the 10 Hatred per second.

Maybe Unhallowed Essence could buff EA as well.

No one really likes to wait for that soft CD to come off while basically doing nothing in between.

I always thought it would be cool to use Karlei’s Point in one hand and LGF in the other, like dual-wielding Daggers as a DH and LGF getting a buff everytime Impale is used, so you then could use Fan of Knives as a nuke that builds up by using Impale. But that would require new visual art for the DH to dual wield Daggers, so it is not gonna happen.

However, the damage of LGF could also be increased from 400% to 1000% FoK damage per second and only stacking up to 10 times, which also gives you the same amount of the current version of LGF, but already within 10 seconds instead of 30.

That might make it more viable and interesting, what do you think?

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Hi clueso – in a previous 2.6.9 balance post I made a while ago, with some testing I observed the current power as:

M6 Elemental Arrow @ GR107
N6M4 Elemental Arrow @ GR120

Your proposed buffs appear to be:

Elemental Arrow Skill: 2x
Kridershot: 5x
Augustine: 2x

The result is a gain of: 20x power for M6, otherwise 19GRs and 5.4x gain for N6M4:

M6 Elemental Arrow @ GR126
N6M4 Elemental Arrow @ GR131

IMHO, this is not enough, particularly because it doesn’t factor the loss of dawn, or the extra hatred cost.

SOMETHING ELSE TO CONSIDER
If I had a clean slate, I would make M6 multiplicative with M4 and remove Multishot from M6, then I’d balance EA/Chakram with Cluster Arrow’s current multiplier from Manticore. We’d see 5k paragon clears just passing GR140.

I wrote about this back in December in yet another DH balance proposal, but kept the post in draft along with other concepts. But I’ll share this particular pitch with you guys today:

:rocket: M6 + Cluster Arrow / Elemental Arrow / Chakram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weuUo8fmso0&

Having played this set a lot, and knowing many do not enjoy it, I feel the 4pc and 6pc set bonuses should multiply together.

What does that look like from a numbers standpoint? Big, balanced damage mainly coming from your Sentries – essentially a replacement for N6M4.

They’ll need to remove Multishot from the Marauder’s 6pc bonus to keep things balanced. Regular M6 Cluster Arrow (not the Cluster Bombs rune) is the next strongest spender build, and it can clear GR118-120 with some push effort.

The Cluster Bombs/Hellcat synergy would no longer apply since Sentry grenades don’t bounce, but assuming everything else is implemented, there are many other effective skills/runes that can be taken instead.

Player cast Spenders deal 601x damage and up to 34,557x coming from 5 additional sentries that hit 11.5x harder than the player. The build becomes roughly 57.5x stronger than today’s M6 build resulting in ~25-26 GRs. Compared to N6M4, this is 8.9x more damage otherwise 14GRs.

Expect GR140 clears with Cluster Arrow:Maelstrom which is well balanced with GoD6.

Embodiment of the Marauder
(4) Set:
Sentries deal 400% increased damage and cast Elemental Arrow, Chakram, Impale, Multishot, and Cluster Arrow when you do.
(6) Set:
Elemental Arrow, Chakram, Impale, Cluster Arrow, Companions, and Vengeance deal 12,000% increased damage for every active Sentry.

With the above, Chakram and Elemental Arrow’s legendary items need to multiply out to 1800-2000%. This means 450-500% to Kridershot and Spines of Seething Hatred to bring the damage up to par with Cluster Arrow.

TO SUMMARIZE

  • Marauder set emphasizes Sentry damage, you will wear enforcer with this set.
  • EA/Chakram legendary items get buffed to match the power of Cluster Arrow.
  • Unhallowed Essence remains the dominant set for Mulitshot.
  • N6M4 hybrid still exists, but it is only to be considered for Multishot assuming an eventual buff to Yangs/DML.

Your proposed 400% Kridershot/Augustine is in the realm of acceptable, but not the change to the skill, you’d have to leave Augustine alone to fix that.

If you didn’t want to go in the direction outlined above, we’re looking at:

Elemental Arrow: 300% → 600%
Kridershot: 1500% damage (remains a generator)
Augustine: 250% → 1500% damage | Slowball @ 750%

This yields 146x (31-32GRs) for pure M6 not factoring in the loss of Dawn – GR139 clears.

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Thanks for that info!

Can you also say how much paragon was used for these tests?

Yes, your calculation is correct, but why would you loose Dawn? You could put it in the cube.

The numbers of course can be increased (e.g. 600% or even 800% on the Kridershot or 60% / 800% on Augustines), and finding out the right amount is exactly what I am looking for with this thread.

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Your Lord Greenstone’s Fan net buff is 2x or 4-5GRs.

Fan of Knives just doesn’t hit hard enough. I like the 1-shot idea, but the radius needs to increase, as well as the damage.

COMPARE TO A6I2 BOMBARDMENT
A6I2 crusaders drop 10 barrels, striking for 1-2Q each in solo play, there is no crit hit factor at play, they always hit for the same amount. We need 100% guaranteed CHC without the janky Sharpshooter passive.

Our 1-shot wonder FoK build should always strike for ~7-8Q in optimal solo conditions, if my memory is correct, plain S2 hits density for 80T with decent area damage.

15 STACKS IS GOOD, STAYING ON TOP OF COE MAKES IT ENGAGING
I agree with the 15 second stack limit, it speeds up the gameplay and makes finding density a rush, you immediately move to new trash after the lightning cycle the pressure is on. But I think there’s a better way which I’ll explain a little further down.

To compare, Crusaders have a pony to propel them to the next high density area, they can also manipulate density. We just have 30% run speed – so the maps have to be extremely dense for this to work well, and elites get left behind if they cannot follow, just like GoD6, Rapid Fire, Multishot and most other builds.

NO OCULUS RING IS A PROBLEM
When we played N6 FoK at GR120, the secondary skills were strong enough to create an oculus ring. At GR130-140, you won’t be able to count on Strafe or RoV to take down trash. So we need a secondary skill to create an oculus ring.

Two build options come to mind:

  1. N6GoD4 Hungering Arrow / FoK meh… two trash clearering skills is bad.
  2. S6 Impale / FoK (Single Target and Trash Clearer in one, Ding-Ding-Ding)

So I highly recommend FoK be paired up with Impale under the S6 set. This means no S6 hybrid and a lot of defenses are needed to compensate for the loss of Dawn. See below:

Sash of Knives
Fan of Knives now throws long-range knives and deals 800% damage to enemies marked for death.

Lord Greenstone’s Fan
Your next Fan of Knives gains 1600% increased damage and 2% critical hit chance each time you hit an enemy with Impale. Stacks up to 15 times.

HOW IT WORKS

  • Sash of Knives, takes the place of Chain of Shadows. So you exchange your mobility to run FoK as a DPS skill. Place mark of death in the center of density to gain 9x damage.

  • LGF dagger stops incrementing stacks by the second. Instead, LGF increments when you hit a target with Impale. It still resets after casting FoK. It works kind of like Shield Bash and Shield Glare with Flail of the Ascended. At 2APS, you’ll be able to deploy a full powered Fan of Knives every 7-8 seconds.

SKILL SETUP FOR PURE S6

  1. Impale
  2. Fan of Knives
  3. Shadow Power
  4. Vault
  5. Vengeance
  6. Marked for Death

EXPECTED RESULTS
Currently S6 with Impale and FoK in the range of GR124-125, and S2CC3A3 FoK currently clears GR115-116.

Lord Greenstone’s Fan = 4x
Sash of Knives = 9x

I could see this doing roughly 22-23GRs or GR136-137 for S2CC3A3 FoK, and probably close to the same for S6 Impale/FoK. It is hard to say how much defense is needed to make the latter build survivable.

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On pure M6, you’re running Bombardier for at least 1.66x damage. (2 extra sentries, which is greater than 1.4x from full time Vengeance).

I figured you’d want to know, so I answered that for you on the very bottom:

The N6M4 top clear would be even higher, 25-26GRs or GR146 @ 5k paragon.

You could taper down N6M4 by redistributing the damage accordingly:

Elemental Arrow: 300% → 600%
Kridershot: 3000% damage (remains a generator)
Augustine: 250% → 400% damage | Slowball @ 200%

M6: +28-29GRs or GR135-136 @ 5k paragon.
N6M4: +22GRs or GR142 @ 5k paragon

Nobody is going to believe this is what it takes to make EA balanced with GoD6 Hungering Arrow, but that’s what it is…

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LGF primarily gets used during leveling.
You make a new character (during season), set difficulty to T6 or whatever you are comfortable with, then you group up a large amount of enemies and then nuke them for massive XP.

My buff proposal is direct towards that.
I probably should have mentioned that.

Yeah, I agree with that as well.
I would just require a redesign of the Shadow set.

Ah, okay, you were talking about Dawn + Vengeance in a Shadow Impale + FoK build… I thought you were talking about loosing Dawn in an Elemental Arrow build. But now it makes sense.

That would be fun, especially if it gets this effect in addition to the effect it already has.

You also would loose the Vault belt or whatever you could use for that in the cube.

Maybe the 4piece of the Shadow set could give you additional defense after having used Fan of Knifes for x seconds.

Yeah, I would totally like that. It sounds much more like a true Assassin / Ninja build.

Just using Impale is imo boring in the current Shadow build and you only use FoK for more armor.

I like the setup you are proposing.

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It’s actually both cases. See the previous comment about Bombardier being really a 1.666x multiplier with 5 sentries deployed.

In N6M4 setups, with a beefier Augustine @ 400%, you’d opt to NOT use Bombardier. Instead, you’d equip Augustine in your offhand.

In M6 setups you’re going with Kridershot+Augustine+Bombardier for best push, it works exactly like when I used to run M6 Multishot without dawn.

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I see, that makes sense.
So an M6 Elemental Arrow setup would struggle with survivability.

The resource cost issue can be solved by continue to let Kridershot turn EA into a generator, but do you have suggestions for improving the survivability of this build?

Just to clarify, do you mean 300% or 3000% increased Elemental Arrow Damage?

I doubt that they will ever go so high on a single legendary.

Maybe 800% on Kridershot and also 800% on Augustine’s (though that might overbuff the M6 version) instead of 3000% increased Elemental Arrow damage on Kriddershot.

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The DH goes Endless Walk w/ Unity, Zoey’s Secret, Wraps of Clarity and cubes Garwulf or Aquilas and can cast Vengeance Dark Heart to gain a little extra toughness. They can also try Captain Crimson with a few RCR rolls instead of Unity/Elusive ring. Or they can go glass cannon F&R.

3000% my friend, M6 and UE6 hit like a wet noodle. Elemental Arrow has no AOE really, it’s such a dinky attack right now. Think of it this way, it’s like playing Impale at range, except you have to kill the trash too. So the shots have to be VERY strong.

Elemental Arrow: 300% → 600%
Kridershot: 800% damage (remains a generator)
Augustine: 250% → 800% damage | Slowball @ 400%

800% and 800% works for N6M4, but it’s crappy for M6. So you’d have to raise the M6 bonus too.

M6: +24GRs or GR131 @ 5k paragon.
N6M4: +18GRs or GR140 @ 5k paragon

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So your comment about loosing Dawn in the cube was more in regards to the loss of resource regeneration if Krindershot would no longer turn Elemental Arrow into a generator.

What if there would be one dedicated set for Elemental Arrow, aka remove Elemental Arrow from all sets, except one?

The first set that would come to my mind that could work as a EA set is Unhallowed Essence. The 6piece set could increase the damage of Generators, Multishot and Elemental Arrow and the current 350% increased damage per point of Discipline could be increased.

Also, Augustine’s could allow Elemental Arrow to shoot several missiles, similar to the Holy Point Quiver. Maybe +4 or +6 missiles.

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I do too, but elemental arrow, much like chakram, were designed to be spammed with their low hatred cost and lower damage. Your suggestion would be better suited for something like spike traps, etc.

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UE6 is the worst visually for Elemental Arrow.

Make M6 and M4 multiplicative, it solves all problems, it gives pure M6 the identity it deserves, then you can buff EA legendaries a little bit.

Save UE6 for Multishot and generators with Vault. Danettas Hatred should supercharge UE6 Grenades.

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To clarify:

Old
Main Hand: Dawn
Offhand: Bombardier Rucksack
Cube: Augustine Panacea

100% Vengeance Uptime: 1.4x

New
Main Hand: Kridershot
Offhand: Bombardier Rucksack
Cube: Augustine Panacea

50% Vengeance Uptime: 1.2x

That is roughly a 1GR loss.

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I sorta don’t wanna go back to EA. Used to play that before torments were implemented, were you used ball of lightning or tendrils for HP steal. The projectiles travel very slow and the ticks weren’t affected by attack speed either (not sure if that changed now).

The meta has evolved into super speeds all over the place. Be it farming, bounties, keys or GR. Peeps want to spend less time killing stuff, to accomplish tasks / reap rewards / xp faster.

Bring Elusiveness to 80% DR like Band of Might, this will open a lot more builds to be playable, and then just up the modifiers / set bonuses to desired power level.

Rather have chakrams or traps buffed / modified to become good than elemental arrow, so at least we have something that plays different than just same old shooting (since we already have those skills), imagine if chakrams would do triple dmg to targets affected by your traps, and you would run that with M6 or something crazy like that.

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There once was a skill for the Demon Hunter called ‘Molten Arrow’. It was basically Elemental Arrow, but it left a trail of fire on the ground, just like the ‘Scorch’ rune for the Wizards Arcane Orb is doing at the moment.

And then there also is Lightning Fury from Diablo 2’s Amazon, which still one of the most popular skills to use in D2:

If the Immolation Arrow rune would be replaced with Molten Arrow and either the Ball Lightning rune or the Lightning Bolts rune would be replaced with Lightning Fury, then it certainly would be a lot faster and more enjoyable to play with that skill, would you agree?

I have to play around with that in my head.
Maybe later I come back to that.
ty!

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Those two EA abilities are both awesome, I’d play them. I lived that Javazon footage back in the day. Paying homage to it would be welcomed.

I suppose if the EA effects are big enough, and impact multiple enemies, it’d work out fine on UE6.

That said, I like where everything you’ve posted is going. If delivered we’ll be quite pleased.

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Javazon is still one of my favorite builds.

Lightning Fury theoretically could be done in D3 by taking Frost Arrow’s code as a base, letting the initial missile pierce, increasing the secondary missiles to 20-30 and letting them pierce as well, and increasing the cone to 360° so that the missiles can go out in all directions and not just behind the target.

Then just change the animation of the missiles to a lightning, like the lightning from the Lightning Blast rune of Electrocute.

And Molten Arrow is already in the game files, so they could just replace it, though it might cause issues with Area Damage, but that can be solved by not letting it proc Area Damage.

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A solid plan — you really know your stuff!

Are you pitching Lighning Fury as a replacement for Ball Lightning or Lightning Bolts rune? The latter is never used.

People could still choose Ball Lightning with a boost to Kridershot + Augustine.

There is also the interaction with Buriza to consider on Molten Arrow if it works anything like Immolation Arrow.

I’d be blown away if all runes were balanced, even that nether one. It Is nice to see players using different runes.

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