[D4 suggestion] - One attribute system to fit them all [discussion]

Hello everyone, recently had an idea/post in which I thought/suggested a system of 6 primary attributes out of which classes would benefit from 4… Yes, that will have some “yeesh” effect on the overall loot but think a lot of folk will benefit from a system that is same/set-up-upfront for all the classes in general… ALSO, not being able to do something with a class (i.e. not having a primary stat X) may increase some creativity amongst players (and distinction in playstyle or impact) of classes in general… In addition classes will have a “primary stat” attribute which increases ability-damage % (in general) BUT at a lower rate/io

That being said: the “one system fits all” primary attributes are…

  • Strength (Physical, primary damage multiplier for Barb and Druid)
    • Offensive: ATK rate (only for physical) (+5 to ATK per point)
    • Defensive: DEF rate (only for physical) (+5 to DEF per point )
  • Ferocity (Mostly physical but perfect for some hybrid action, like the Druid for ex., but keep it simple (for now) and let the Druid have a primary stat of Str)
    • Offensive: Hit-Effect power (+0.5% per Ferocity increase)
    • Defensive: Hit-Effect damage mitigation (-0.5% per Ferocity increase)
  • Willpower (Mostly intended for casters but some other semi/hybrid classes can benefit from it too)
    • Ofensive: Cast Rate increase (+0.5% cast ratio increase per point of WP)
    • Defensive: (If can be called defensive): Resource generation and return (resource generation is increased by 1% per point of WP)
  • Adaptibility (or Adaptation, mostly intended for casters/hybrid classes in more defensive/tactical manner, mostly via empowering blessing & curse effects in general)
    • Ofensive: Buffs & Debuffs power & Duration increase (0.5% per point of Adaptation)
    • Defensive: Sustain (i.e. healing received increased ratio) (0.5% per point of Adaptation)
  • Intelligence (intended for super-heavy casters but some hybrid classes can benefit too)
    • Offensive: Spell damage increase (0.25% per point of Int)
    • Defensive: Magic-Damage taken reduced by (i.e. magic-damage absorb) (0.25 per point of Int)
  • Dexterity (intended for hybrid classes, with a little twist on the defensive side though)
    • Offensive: Hit-effect chance % increase (0.15% per point of Dex)
    • Defensive: (if can be said defensive): CD reduction (0.5% reduced CD per point of Dex)

Now the last one may have surprised you a bit but think it’s overall better idea than having Dodge % be a “primary stat”… More about it perhaps later, but for now the important thing the primary-stat Class-usage table (i.e. which class benefits from what, and sadly, can’t buff via usage of the primary stat attribute of their own)

Barbarian: *Str, Fer, WP, Dex
Druid: *Str, Fer, Adapt, Int
Sorceress/r: *Int, Dex, WP, Adapt
Rogue: *Dex, Str, Fer, Adapt

“*” = primary attribute, i.e. % ability damage increase (small amounts)

That being said here’s the “breakdown” per class (and differences in playstyle, i.e. things to look-out for)

Barbarian: has Str, Fer, Dex, WP

  • Strengths:
    • Primary stat = Str, meaning good ATK/DEF ratio on primary attacks (and all physical attacks in general, say good damage mitigation by archer projectiles unless imbued by magical power/s)
    • Can greatly benefit from almost “naturally built-in” Dex/Fer system of hit-effects (both in chance and in power)
    • Barb with good rating on Fer. doesn’t have to fear losing anytime soon by dying from Bleeding, Critical, Armor pierce and such due to an “almost natural” system of high amount for Hit-effect damage-taken mitigation
    • Has the ability (if by wish) to increase damage output (AND frequency) of skill attacks rather than primary/physical damage by investing into greater amounts of Willpower (which will in return also increase fury generation)
  • Weaknesses:
    • UNLESS having good resistances, should fear curses and (all sorts of magical DoTs in general) cause has no “primary” way to mitigate (or reduce damage taken by those)
    • Has no “primary” way to make buffs “get out of control” and/or stack, due to the lack of Adaptation as a primary stat… This also results in the importance for the Barb. to get any sort of “secondary” life sustain as much as possible due to items or talents (i.e. “hunt” for pieces that give lifesteal) cause has no primary way to invest in this aspect of self/survival

Druid: has Str, Fer, Adapt, Int

  • Strengths:
    • Primary stat = Str, meaning good ATK/DEF ratio on primary attacks (and all physical attacks in general, but Druid can also invest into Int for magic damage mitigation as primary source, i.e. resistances not a “must have” in all situation/s)
    • Being able to invest into Ferocity as primary stat the Druid becomes a true force to fear in his shapeshift forms (Werewolf especially, but sometimes also in Werebear form)
    • Being able to increase points in Adaptibility/Adaptation also brings the benefit from a potential “endless cycle” of buffs/debuffs (and buff/debuff stacking in general) as well as high amounts of self-sustain on the defensive end of the battle/s
    • Has the ability (if by wish) to do most of the damage in a human/caster form but this will (probably) never be a reliable source of damage outcome due to the lack of “inherent ways” of resource-generation
  • Weaknesses:
    • Lacking resource generation as a primary stat means Druid should really look out for affixes (or talents) that give him the necessary resource return (or even resource cost reduction), and in general makes him go “in face” for longer periods of time so that the resource naturally regens back on time until casting another “safe distance” AoE/utility spell
    • CD reduction (on paper) sounds like it’s not too much to give up from but imagine, just imagine if you could say instead of Boulder on every 5-8 seconds do it on say 2-3 seconds or so… yeah, perhaps some of these may be found on the Talent tree (which would also mean points not invested into skill powers), but most of them probably won’t. Also not having Dex as a primary attr the Druid can’t benefit (at least not quite as much) from his hit-effects in shapeshift forms (unless talented or an affix explicitly does so), i.e. in the primary attribute system Druid has all the access to hit-effect power, but not hit-effect chance % procs

Sorcerer/ss: has Int, Dex, Adapt, WP

  • Strengths:
    • Primary stat = Int, meaning good ATK/DEF ratio on spell attacks (and all magical attacks in general), but has to REALLY watch out for things like getting hit by a ballista or some knight’s specials
    • By being naturally-adaptible has an almost-natural “feel” for keeping the tides of battle/s in his/her advantage (while in a “buffed up” state the Sorc can also have increase survival ratio/s via heal procs)
    • Being able to invest into Dexterity as a stat the Sorc can gain some surprising bursts of damage even from the less-intimidating spells (if talented in such a way), a thorn in the eye of the unsuspecting attacker/s that may not be ready for. Also, this kind of a Sorc can also invest into “repeated spam” of heavy-damage abilities at their disposal (i.e. have a CD of 3-4 seconds instead of 8-10 for say a Meteor for ex.), but in order to do so has to keep in mind the second “component” of destruction in his/her arsenal
    • Willpower: has the ability (if by wish) to do most of the damage in a fast repeatable fashion via WP investments (and being able to seemingly endlessly do so), which gives an increased ratio for resource generation which in term may (or may not) give the ability back to cast a “heavy hitter”
  • Weaknesses:
    • Lacking physical defense and damage suffered by hit-effects can be a really serious headache to deal with, but luckily there should be items with Affixes of type (damage taken reduced by X, physical) or affixes of type (reduced damage/duration of impair effects), so make sure you can get as much as possible of those (or at least a fair amount)… Not having to worry much about things like DoTs/Curses will give you some “freedom” to search what you really need/lack more
    • Ferocity (on paper) sounds like it’s not too much to give up from but keep in mind that “what you see in your talent system is what you get”, LITERALLY, if a “Freeze” effect does 10% more damage, that’s it, can’t make it be a 20%, 25% (or 30%), for the most part at least (unless an item stat says otherwise, but these would probably be super rare/legendary in general). Alternatively you could get some “buff” gear, but this kind of gear has some drawback in the form of “hamstring effect” i.e. “D3 style gameplay” where you’d have to continue forward destroying stuff faster to keep the buffs/survival-bonuses as stacked and as long as possible (whilest also having to keep in mind to not run out of resource)

Rogue: has Dex, Str, Fer, Adapt

  • Strengths:
    • Primary stat = Dex, meaning you’ll be (for the most part) a true “Swiss army knife” in combat (in general)… You can really impactfully reduce all those not long but still “pesky” CDs of all your “surprise attacks” (or even the most battle-control ones) to almost a near-spam ratio… However be aware that you can’t “spam” forever and keep the “resource meter” in mind as much as possible, you don’t want to end up “dry” in a bunch without much left in the “tank” lol
    • Having the ability to invest into both Dex & Ferocity at the same time, the Rogue has the same “natural feel” for striking where it hurts the most (just as the Barb) via hit-effects in a dual-effect i.e. not just by chance increase but also in power
    • In contrast to the Barb, the Rogue has to watch-out for “heavy hitters” from physical source/s of damage but investing and learning to use Adaptation the right way can “make up” for the lack of “natural toughness” (i.e. toughness while being “idle” something that a Barb could do) and, sadly, has to watch out for both magic and physical attacks to come… Luckily doesn’t have to worry about dying from any kind of special attack or spell proc
  • Weaknesses:
    • Lacking physical AND magic damage suffered can be an issue, however items with Affixes of type (damage taken reduced by X, physical, magical), Resistances, and such should buy you “enough time” to either get a chance or at least keep a survival-buff for long/er
    • Not having WP reduces your “spam hard hitter” impact on the battlefield, but affixes of type Cost-reduction should take care of this problem (at least somewhat), sadly, things like resource-steal (or per-kill) is what you get, if it’s 2 per kill then that’s what you get, can’t make it 4, 5 or something more… Luckily some of the buffs you may get a hold onto (or talents) may reduce the impact of this problem

There you have it folks, took me quite a bit longer to explain everything in detail/s but think it was worth :slight_smile:

Also one final notion: the abscence of “Dodge” as a stat, and putting CD reduction instead: hope you’d (most of you) would agree it’s the better option and “lesser evil” of the two… I mean sure, one is defensive only, other can be both off and deff useful but thing is Dodge is RNG… Same problem with Critical… Having “chance for critical” as a sole-ofensive on a primary stat is “meh” IMO, also, the notion of Critical-hit as a separate hit-effect makes things bland/boring so combining both of them (chance and power increase) for not just critical but ALL hit effects, and putting in a separate primary stat (Ferocity) does a better job…

Hope you like that approach (also) overall, so whaddya think ?, I think there’s quite a bit of benefit/s to having such a system (one class system fits all) but classes themselves having a “limited” reach for them overall… It’s just that takes a tad bit too long (to initially explain) overall :slight_smile:

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Yeah, that immediately kinda is a turn-off, just like mainstat, though to a lesser degree.

I also did some experiments in coming up with a system where each attribute fits on all classes, and it just did not really work or fit.

Here are my results of trying to make a One-Fits-All Attribute System work (but it didn’t really), if you are interested.

Each Attribute having an offensive as well as a defensive bonus is also kinda a turn-off, at least for me personally, because in a way it makes them all the same.

I personally would prefer if each of them had a distinctive roll, like ‘offensive’, ‘defensive’, ‘resource’, etc.

I know what you mean. I also encountered this issue when I designed the One-Fits-All Attribute System. However, there is a way to solve this issue.

Instead of every class having the same attributes, there are only 4 Attributes that have the same role for each class, but different names and effects based on the class (it could also be 3 or 5 or more Attributes, but 4 just worked).

These 4 Attributes I named

  • Offensive Attribute
  • Defensive Attribute
  • Mobility Attribute
  • Resource Management Attribute

Each class would have an Attribute that fits that role.

Offensive Attribute

  • Barbarian: Strength
  • Sorcerer: Intelligence
  • Rogue: Dexterity
  • etc

Defensive Attribute

  • Barbarian: Constitution
  • Sorcerer: Magical Armor
  • Rogue: Survivability
  • etc

Resource Management Attribute

The Primary Bonus of the Offensive Attribute would increase the damage by x% for each class, and then have additional smaller Secondary Bonuses / Flavor Bonuses that are individual for each class (e.g. Strength gives the Barbarian a smaller amount of Crushing Bow, the Rogue gains some Critical Hit Chance and Sorcerer gains e.g. some Increase Area of Effect or Resistance Pierce).

Same for the Defensive Bonus, and that is how you can fit Dodge Chance in there, as a smaller, Secondary Bonus for the Rogue, while Barbarian gains reduced damage taken from physical/melee attacks and the Sorcerer gains Energy Shield, while the Primary Bonus of that Defensive Attribute is x% reduced damage taken for all classes.

Here are some images to illustrate the concept:

Number are of course just for the purpose of illustration.

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If you want to take some inspiration from that, feel free to do so.

I think that Cooldown Reduction is Resource Management and therefore kinda belongs in separate category. If Cooldown Reduction would have been in Diablo 2, it would / should have been there together with increased Mana on the Energy Attribute, since both of them are Resource Management.

But if you want, I would make CDR and maybe RCR its own separate Attribute for your System, where it is the only one that does not have the Offensive / Defensive Duality, but is rather its own thing.

Yeah, I agee, which is why I turned Dodge and Crit into Secondary Bonuses for the Rogues Offensive and Defensive Attributes

I like discussing about such topics and hearing other peoples ideas and inputs on it, that is waht I think in general, so thanks for sharing.

First of all would recommend separating the second image into 4 images (one zoomable on it’s own for each class :slight_smile: , so could see a bit more in detail)

The first image looks… interesting, but feels like putting the classes a tad bit too much in the same spot… Sure there are some secondary/advanced systems in check and whatnot to fill the gap and spice things up a little bit (a system I quite like in stagger/endurance in fact) but having like 4 stats on one attribute is… a tad too much

Want to comment on one particular part though:

I could get where this comes from but also have to keep in mind that gear design becomes much easier and much more standardized… For example armor piece having 3 defensive and 2 utility stats, weapon piece having 3 ofensive and 1 resource stat, jewelry pieces having 3 resource-management/utility and one defensive or ofensive stat…

IF you end up on the other end like in example you mentioned, separate attribute per separate type of stat, then you’ll end up with “irregularities” in gear… Now that can be both good and bad (depending on what you want to achieve) but I think it becomes MUCH HARDER to balance overall, for example let’s say your STR gives armor piece and therefore a weapon that has BOTH Str and Armor pierce and Crushing blow, guess what: your weapon now has BOTH Armir pierce and Crushing blow and physical damage increase
ALL in one go

Having a primary attribute give you both at the same time may sound a bit of turnoff at times (for example why would a weapon give DEF ratio via Str, or Resource regen via WP), and may sound a bit “off” to have each gear slot potentially give you similar effect (just different impact), but think that the nuances of the affixes themselves can make up for the “lack” of potential diversity that may or may not occur… In addition, you also don’t end up with “bizzare” example/s of one piece of gear stacking the “heck” of it’s own stats…

In short: by having a balanced attribute system (both off/def or resource/sustain) you free yourself up from that “burden” and just know that things (unless deliberately intended) probably won’t get out of control

And (again) think that nuances in implementation are enough to “offer” a fair playground for affixes on gear afterwards… I mean here’s even a shorter example, let’s say hypothetically that the ADA powers make a return and you get something like:

AngP: Buff strength, RCR
DemP: Debuff strength, CDR
AncP: Proc-chance, Life/Resource-return

You can STILL put each of those on each piece of gear (weapon, armor, you name it) and still not get “out of control”… With a system where a certain attribute buffs only ofensive powers… what happens if you get a super high roll of that power (or at least a relatively high roll) on an armor piece, or say a high roll for resource-management on a weapon ?, it kinda “shifts” the whole character into more of the one or the other doesn’t it, it’s not just “flavors” that you have to keep in mind right now but entire countries to where you “end up” if you stack one or the other more…

Also, will you attempt balancing it in any shape or form or just let it “flow” ?, how about secondary attribute stats, will you write rules of type “if you have high roll on Str then make sure there’s no high roll on Armor-pierce or Crushing blow”, things like that ?, or maybe (perhaps) that’s by design/intent but then what happens when you get a really high roll on Str on a piece of Armor ?, think the “page from D4 design” is the correct approach here overall and get a one off and one def. stat increase per attribute point IMO, gets much easier to keep things balanced and avoid potential “malfunctions” of having stuff above an intended threshold (that’s just my opinion, perhaps you’d be able to identify those things but think a safer/more-balanced approach makes things easier for the longer)

And lastly about the “dedicated resource management” attribute, thought to put the CD red. and Cast Rate in one same stat but doesn’t that feel super cheesy ?, I mean, hey, regardless if you want to spam easy-spells/generators OR heavy-hitters, make sure you have WP, that’s kinda lame isn’t it ?, also Dex. kinda becomes less about “being able to re/act” frequently and more about “being super efficient” ? :thinking: in one go

That CAN work (in some cases), but think having the light-spells/heavy-hitters and CDR/RCR on a separate stat kinda does a more spread-out and yet more generic/versatile purpose for all :slight_smile:

Hi again o/.

As we discussed on the other post and now seeing the detailed post you done here.

You are thinking stats being a more utility/sustain/survability. Than actually affect overall damage/defensive power.

Because you saying things like:

  • str: atk rate and defense rate(suggesting something from d2, like attack rating and defense rating) while says stuff like “+5 atk per point” that would mean flat damage which is a bad concept for any kind of synergy based on skills, but great if you don’t attack with skills.
  • fer: CC on attack effect and CC mitigation
  • wil: fcr, resource regen
  • ada: buff time, debuff time, healing potency, buff/debuff strength?
  • int: spell damage(I think it’s similar as their concept), magic damage absorb(what’s the difference from all resist?)
  • dex: cc effect chance, cd reduction

Dex and ada, are the most broken things in this stat “by far”. Because you can spam and improve several tiers their efficiency from it. Making the same issue we had d2 and d3. Poor choices of stats, because most of them are way worst.

Their current concept:
For barbs:
str means more defense and skill damage(doesn’t mean their damage will increase, but their skills will be). While for sorceress means defense. That means the concept of the stat, somewhat similar from d3. Same applies for int on sorc and int on barb.

Then we get 2 stats that are dynamic, willpower and dex (replacing energy and vitality). Like I said on the other post, their “ideas” aren’t far from the real scenario of each class, sure the labels could receive more tough or maybe moving some of those odds to gear not in stat. But their goal it’s make “every stat be meaningful” while maintain the balance between stat, skill and gear.

If you check, int and str on sorc and barb, don’t affect their damage, affect their skill damage. That means synergy with skills. On d2 we didn’t had that, maybe it’s a good thing, maybe it’s not. At least generate diversity some folks would invest on CC others will become glass cannons others will balanced to get most of the skill effects unlocked by stats.

Then you have other 3 stats, one defensive(int/str) in barb/sorc case and 2(wil/dex) that could generate some impact on (skill effects thresholds), so they heavily synergized the skills with stats.

Then you have gear, who would affect the aspd, the kind of skill you use and some other perks like change the way some skills behave.

That’s a really cool and balanced mechanic in strong pillars. Your idea about more stats can be great, but needs to take in mind those other 2 factors.

Dex are far from more powerful than the others, why? Because Increases the rate of your skills casted(d3 and d4 have longer cooldowns on stronger abilities), means cooldown on stat it’s above everything. Add on the top of it CC chance, that means several sources of the CC on the enemy (Crowd control it’s effect like any other, like bleed and poison) 100 points in there, means 15% CC + 50% CD.

Then you have adaptability: Means buffs uptimes being permanent, healing effects improved and buffs/debuff power increased(a lot, 100 points in that means 50% buff power, debuff power, durantion of those effects and 50% more healing).

With 40 levels with 5 points, means 200 points (you have 0 points to spare). Meaning that you actually could have even more % on those. Not considering folks who would dump 200 stats on dex to have perfect CD reduction or at least enough points to have like 50-80% reduction to make skills having 100% uptime and dump the rest on ada.

That means, poor design. At least using those “references”. It’s nice having stats to meaningful improve per point like:

  • Luck : MF(5%)/GF(10%)/hit-effect on attack(0.2%)/hit-effect reduction(0.2%)
  • Vigor: Life regen(1%)/resource regen(0.5%)/life(1%)/resource(0.5%)
  • Agility movement speed(1%)/aspd(1%)/parry(0.5% if dual or twohanded)/block(0.5% if shield)

and leave dodge, cooldown reduction, resource cost, cast rate, flat damage, elemental %, critical chance, crit damage and other stuff to gear and some passive talents. Removing from the stats entirely. I suggested 4 kind of stuff for each of one of those stats but they could use 2 per stat and rebalance dex by example based on the class template, maybe using agility as dex, selecting 2 from those 4 options.

So it’s nice to check how would affect gear, skill and talents(appears to have some kind of mastery in each character).

I hope we can continue doing more discussion and brainstorming about cool concepts and ideas that could improve the game. Not critizing or anything, I just took approach to be more “in line” with their goals to try to find a middle ground for the best possible balance between stats.

D4 style ATK rate, not D2 :slight_smile:

What does it mean ?, in short damage output goes like following:

ATK * Skill / TargetDef, or more specifically ATK/TargetDef = TargetHitRatio, so then damage is:

D = TargetHitRatio * SkillDamage (THR is different and calculated separately for each target separately, i.e. not the same if you mash a light-skinned little beast or a heavy-armored knight for ex.)

So, having higher ATK automatically increases damage output, but in case for STR it’s physical attacks only (in the case of Int it’s a % magic damage increase, i.e. damage-Amp, just like as if your main stat is INT)

Now the question is since ATK is pretty much direct damage rank increase to a certain target (well, there are skills that may be magic-based), so that the Barb can Kinda invest either into direct more physical combat (or invest more into a skill like Upheaval, which I’d imagine has more of a magical damage background)

Thing about D4 ATK/DEF is it’s not confirmed or anything, it’s just brainstorming but from what has been seen (so far) it’s kinda obvious that it’s not a direct damage (or damage per hit), I mean a lvl20 wand has ATK of 800 and a lvl20 staff has ATK of 1400 (and there are vids of Rogue fighting a boss lvl40 and barely critting 2k lol)

Fer: it’s not really CC, but rather damage on hit-effect (higher Fer means your Criticals, Stuns, Knockbacks, Roots, Armor pierce/reduction, Bleed)… Yes those are “CCs” in a way but they’re still (more or less) directly related to damage (the only types of CC that I’d imagine themselves not doing any damage are things like Blind, Silence, Freeze, but usually skills that freeze would have a damage of their own)

So basically kinda becomes a 3 types of damage thing (physical, magical, hit-effect, yes, as a separate type of damage, no need to multiply or anything, keep those things separate is IMO kinda the better option, or if you want to give it a name, let’s call it “obstructive” damage source) :slight_smile:

Now you say ADA and DEX would be mostly broken ?, maybe, but then you need damage output (say you have a buff, but doesn’t have to mean it’s damage, could be a shield while X or IDK, X% more damage vs undead vs X, it really depends on types of de/buffs tbh), and not to mention they’re probably the one thing that’s gonna be dictated by far the most from “outside sources” i.e. items and consumables (most reliable source of de/buff would be scrolls for example, happens exactly when you want it, lasts exactly how long you want it to last, but it’s limited by nature)

Maybe you are right, perhaps having a power/duration increase on effect from consumables could be OP (especially when paired with high sustain) but then those things are “balanceable”, i.e. don’t have to change/nerf classes, just have to nerf the scrolls you buy or drop, that’s all

Magic Absorb = Damage taken reduced by X, i.e. AFTER the incoming damage has been reduced by resistance %, there’s a linear reduction (sort of like magical armor, not sort of but exaclty like magical armor), that being said a character that has relatively high Magical armor (unless under effect of having that armor reduced) are pretty safe from “small but repeatable” magical sources of damage, basically anything that does DoT gets almost “anihilated” completely (say can’t go under 1 damage received per tick, but get the idea)… However for the “heavy hitters” you still can’t just get INT, those are things that are solely dealt with by Resistances :slight_smile:

Why did I decide it that way ?, well, think it’s kinda more interesting to have 2 types of damage mitigation (both % and linear) but ALSO, doesn’t give the INT far too much power compared to other sources of attributes (other than poison, maybe)

The most tricky part IMO overall is the Ferocity defensive stat, which is hit-effect-reduction, basically what happens there is the same thing that happens with ATK/TargetDef rating, i.e.: hit-effect-damage = yourFER/TargetFER * HitEffectDamage (you might crit a spider and does 1 shot it, but then try crit a blademaster it will do a significantly less damage (and surprise, if you don’t have a FER stat on your own, hope that stacking bleed or crit you can survive it by primary DEF rating or item affixes that reduce damage-taken by bleed)

BUT, again, if you think of HitEffects as a “3rd type” of damage (that can be partially countered by DEF rating but then attacker also has ATK and IN ADDITION to that has it’s own FER stat, then you better hope your DEF is high enough or have to invest into a FER of your own)… I could very well imagine the Druid, or the Rogue for that matter that they’d have hit-effect talents on their skills (such as IDK swipe does bleed, or caltrops does root damage or whatever)

You get the idea… I think :thinking: :slight_smile:

Now the cool part is if not all the classes can get all those things, some have to either rely on buff/debuff gear (more specifically defensive buff gear) OR affixes that reduce a certain type of obstructive damage taken… In order to “make up” for this these kinds of affixes would be much higher on rolls than the generic ones like Resistances (i.e. say 33% reduced damage taken from bleed, 50% less damage taken from root, cannot be knocked back, cannot be stunned, things like that… :slight_smile: )… Even D2 has things like 75% reduced poison duration or half freeze duration, why can’t D4 ? (only this time things like bleed, root, would have more exaggerated damage so you’d have to take it into consideration instead of just rely on high HP and resistance/s…)

Well. this it’s what happens on d2. They gauge the “target hit ratio” from your attack(rating) stat up 95% vs defense from the target (if I remember correctly). Then they apply the damage, using the proper reductions from gear or some kind of passive.

Highlighted damage from skills vs damage as is. Because If you heavily invest in a skill you get better results because it’s a % multiplier based on that “range” damage factor. Not like d3 where everything has multipliers by % except weapons and “base damage”. If you check d4 skills you see (flat damage values), while on the character sheet the stat improves the damage of those skills in %. That’s why I mentioned flat damage vs % damage from skills would be bad design. Not always and not all skills receive benefits from “flat” damage, at least on d2. So it’s unclear, at least right now, if the weapon damage will have any effect at all on skills, for any kind of source. Maybe it’s just a modifier for a normal attacks or a singular perk for a physical attacks. That’s why I highlighted the fact of % damage from skills not from your weapon or overall damage. They could simply calc like this:
(Stat bonus * skill damage)+(weapon+flat damage) by example. Meaning that stat only interfere on the damage from skill in % not always meaning that weapon damage would be in there(if will be there).

That’s why I said they maybe simplified and targeted the str,int stats for skills not for flat damage.

Exactly, maybe the weapon will not play any role or will play addictive role in some kind of attacks. Afterall monsters will have a defensive stat, some more than others. A bit of legacy from d2.

That’s a nice naming. Physical, Magical and obstructive.
Physical means non magical(non elemental - example bleed,poison,open wounds,necrosis, material piercing, material slashing, material bludgeoning)
Magical means non physical(elemental - example burn,chill,freeze,paralysis,root, flashing, binding)
Obstructive means bleed, poison, blind, stun, bind, root, freeze, burn, chill, slow, crushing blow, critical hit(if there is a perk about it), any kind of debuff/buff.

Have you tried on d3 vanilla pick a pvp between monk and barb? Monk could kill a barb with 1/10 of the damage of him, because each hit he done landed and the interval between the hits on barb his hp was already replenished. Barb with damage enough to kill with 3-4 hits would die against a monk needing to do 30-40 hits at same aspd. Add the perks from obstructive attacks, then you get stun, blind and slow means even easier target. I saw it several times, was ridiculous see a monk only with weapon beating full geared barb because the dodge mechannic. The pvp worked on d2 because they had ways to avoid the dodge mechannic (like run, some spells just ignored and so on).

Well, could reduce but still. If you consider (gear+stat+skill+talent) the values could become high. So even if each “part” have like 10-15% means 40-60% effectiveness, it’s hard to balance when you have several sources applying the same effects, I didn’t even mentioned runewords. That’s why I said, maybe isolate each “perk” around one-two kind of source. Like certain effect can only be obtained from stat and talent, the other one from gear and skill, so on.

That means similar to d2? Well could work but on higher difficulties it’s a stat that becomes obsolete. If they plan to increase the level cap or increase the difficulty inside the game. The effect will become as bad as bleed is on d3.

Like I said, the concept has potential, but needs some brainstorm on it. The game has:
gear+stat+talent+skill to affect the damage the character will do and receive. But behind the scenes have another stuff going on, like obstruction effects and other kind of mechannics that we don’t even know about it.

The idea of having 3 “source” of damage, already exists but aren’t associated with stats. You’re trying to put it on stats, that could make things interesting or just plainly broken. How to make the 3rd source of damage balanced with “scalar” sources of damage while those effects aren’t it’s the challenging part, that’s why maybe the concept needs some tweak. Like instead of obstruction affect put something like aspd/movement speed, that could make things “more” realistic on the “sheet” when you consider the damage scalation potential, maybe some sort of area damage value not changing proc chance by stat(but other source affecting the chance).

Planning obstructive effects on stats, means that stat or will be entirely nullified from some sources(meaning bad stat) or having really the edge against other kind of damages. So if they plan the build like appeared(perma beserk for barb) those kind of effects would become really bad stats, add the fact also sorceress has somes skills that makes her invulnerable for few seconds. Then those stats would become bad options really fast. I’m quoting pvp situations, but most likely mobs would get some immunity gauges bar for it or bosses would ignore most of those effects entirely.

Leaving those kind of stats on gear, skills, talent are safer choices. If you check, all 3 interations of the game had those perks on gear/skills. D3 tried dodge mechannic from dex and got bad results also, because didn’t had a similar stat as “attack rating”. That’s why I said, most likely the dodge mechannic will not stay on dex, because there is no “truestrike” or balanced way to nullify it on the character sheet right now.

Think that every single attack type effect needs a equal defense type effect. The same needs to happen on defense. Having “defense” then “resist” means you can work with both source of damages in more simplier ways. I can see a balance for Ada, but fer? Would need to rely on trickier mechannics that not every class has access and if they nerf the stat, could become pointless. So the stat has potention to be worthless or broken, try to think a way to make fer work on a rock, paper and scissors game, in the same way as the other stats works. If it’s not simple to work on rock, paper and scissors mechannic wouldn’t be great on stat. Like Dodge(without attack rate) and Critical (without critical resistance)

The fer stat, most likely needs to become more scalar stat. While ada could become something interesting but would need great attention to not become too exploitative. Because Ada could have potential to become on par to any kind of DoT. Meaning that could be “balanced” in some way.