D4: sub classes, for or against?

General Discussion
1

As title, so do you beautiful people like D4 to have subclasses?

For people that don’t know what sub class is, it’s well a sub class within a main class.
Example.
Main class warrior,
Sub classes, berserker, champion, juggernaut

This is pretty common in many arpg like PoE, last epoch, lost ark.

The pro is to further customize your class to be more specific. The con is shoehorning players into well sub catergories , which may a result in less builds, not more. But I could be wrong

Either way, feel free to discuss

3 Likes
2

As always it depends whether you design it well.

A game like Baldurs Gate and others which was a full RPG did it as well with second game and basically every sub class was playable and fun. ARPG gets a bit harder to do that, especially if go to deep in the action because of mechanics, still it should be possible to do well, just might be wiser to start off with the classes and add specialisation with a big expansion where you can fully focus on adding them on an already great base game.

They are a lot of work to do well and done badly as you intimated with less viable builds it is better not to even start on them.

3

Personally I’m against sub-classes, as you have less ways and freedom in which you customize and build your character, which is usually caused by the sub-class having a focal point that have players building their character around.

3 Likes
4

If DH becomes a sub class for Rogue, then I’m all for it.

5

No. Never saw the upside of instead of having a class having different specializations that you’re free to change between forcing you to chose one and stick with it, which sub classes essentially is.

4 Likes
6

I think a plate armour class where you can be a Holy Knight, Death Knight or standard Knight would be cool.

I don’t really see a need for 3 plate armour classes in game when you could have more classes in game instead.

I still want these 3 plate armour classes to exist though.

I actually wrote about it here if anyone is interested: D4 New Class Ideas

7

Aren’t subclasses inherent in any build? I mean, the only way to avoid sub classes is if we make each class proficient to only one skill with only one set of gear. Am I missing the definition of sub class? I would like variety, so put me down for subclasses.

1 Like
8

Yeah like “Fire Mage” or “Lightning Mage” doesn’t need an entire class.

That’s how I see Holy Knight, Death Knight and Knight. The same as having a seperate class for “Fire Mage”.

Not necessary and actually allows for more unique classes to exist than have 3 that are really similar.

1 Like
9

Typically, games with subclass has some form of sub class skill tree or bonus.

For instead, say using my original example

A Berserker has skill tree that support fast dual weiding, & have permament rage mode that incraese life steal etc

An a Jugganaunt will be the tank class of Warrior & skill tree specialise in 2 handeed weapons & have beefed up armor & damage mitigation. Also it may have sub class sepcific skills like superbash

So basically, it may “enchance” certain playstyle.

the counter argument, is it shoehorn people into these sub class style or you will be inefficient.

2 Likes
10

In a way yes, but the OP is talking more about actual specializations that grant unique bonuses that can’t be earned elsewhere, and usually once a specialization (or sub-class in this case) is acquired, you can’t acquire another one, so you can’t necessarily mix different sub-class bonues. And what bonuses you are able to get tend to be limited to either generic ones or ones specific for your specialization (in most cases you’d go for the latter). So it tends to be restricting in how you build and play your character.

In fact, another way of possibly describing it would be to look at D3 sets. They are pretty much specializations done in item form, and choosing to use them grant you bonuses that you can’t necessarily get elsewhere. On the other hand, they leave little room for alternatives with a few exceptions like abilities or items that further synergize or buff your abilities.

For example, a demon hunter who wants to use a dagger, like a rogue or assassin, could make use of the shadow set since it’s bonuses support such image. However if you opted for the shadow set (or in this case the subclass or specialization), then you wouldn’t opt for skills that either aren’t supported or offer any worthwhile synergies, for example sentries, at least not unless you don’t care as much for maximizing your potential damage output.

Now D3 sets may not be the best comparison for a number of reasons (for example you can easily take off a set and put another one, unlike most other games specialization which require either an investment and/or effort in order to change), but I think it does a good job at least of showing (on a much smaller scale ofc) how class sub-classes tend to work in some games.

2 Likes
11

I am strongly in favor of sub-classes in CRPGs.
However, they seem unneeded in A-RPGs.
Your own build effectively is your sub-class.

Blizzard just need to make sure enough skills etc. exist to allow players to make those sub-classes.

If the sub-classes are designed as detailed choices we make, they become like set items, reducing build diversity, rather than increasing them.

That said… it really depends on what is meant by sub-classes.
In many CPRGs sub-classes are just small rule changes, that does not limit your builds particularly. That could work okay. Although again, the setup of A-RPG builds kinda allows this to happen without sub-classes, so there is no benefit to it.

Also, it doesn’t have to be either/or.
Diablo 4 already has sub-classes.
That is for all intents and purposes what the Rogue class mechanism is.
Doesn’t mean Sorc needs the same.
I think sub-classes would fit the Druid really well though. Picking a “clan” or a “totem animal” that defines some aspects of your character (“Of the bear”, “of the Wolf”, “of the Raven” etc.)

Yep.
The thing sub-classes do is adding them as a hard choice. It can make sense for balancing, asking you to choose either Berserker or Champion. Instead of allowing you to go 50% of each.
Doesn’t seem relevant here though, if someone want to do the latter, let them.

Yeah, and that alone is enough reason Blizzard should not do Sub-classes :smiley:

Sub-classes in Pillars of Eternity 2 style can be fine, but also already supported in Diablo. Basically just “minor” changes to the class, like having to pick one of 4 passives for example. D4 could easily have that already, where you can only pick 1 or 2 of the main 4-8 passives at the end of the Passive Root system. Serving kinda the same purpose.

Also, I fear Ultimates will have this effect. And one of the reasons I am so much against Ultimate skills as a concept.
Big risk that if Sorcs have Ultimate skill A, B and C, then you effectively will have 3 sub-classes of sorcs, one for each Ultimate. Drastically reducing build diversity.
Just get rid of Ultimate skills as a design please.

1 Like
12

Sub-classes are needed when the class identity isn’t strong enough. For PoE doing sub-classes was a good decision, but for D4 it would have more negatives overall.

What I’d like to see in D4 is rather stronger class identity with each class having its own stat caps (minor sub-classing/specialization/profession could kind of modify these and work okay) for avoiding meme-ish builds and having larger build diversity, and also unique ways to heal instead of all classes using potions.

Then just design good new classes and add these as DLCs over time.

13

Im sure you could easily replicate one goingnoff the combat trailer and skills used.

14

I’m thinking the OP is suggesting something like LA where you start as a warrior then bexome a Destroyer, Paladin, Demolisher, and so on. Since we kinda have sub classes built in as you and Argos mentioned.

I’d rather not see that as that just limits what you can do. Just having enough skills can make one different enough from others, even speciaizing in an one area can effectively make you a sub class.

1 Like
15

I much prefer to build the class the way I like to play. I don’t want to be pigeonholed into playing one specific way dictated by a set in stone sub-class. Having access to all the class skills and deciding how best to combine them lets us create our own “sub class”. I don’t want to be forced to play some other person’s definition of what a sub class should be.

2 Likes
16

There are cool things you can do with sub classes. For instance PoE has done them very well.

But for Diablo specifically i feel like the classes are the sub classes if we compare them to PoE. Diablo isnt a very “open” game where any class can do anything. They are fixed with fixed abilities. Not a whole lot of room to go outside that box.

17

Honestly prefer that to any “class” can be anything. I’d rather my Barb be a physical destructive force and not have to spec into being that.

18

Even though it is technically possible for a Marauder (Barb) in PoE to be a caster. They dont have anything to really support that play style. And it is just a bad choice compared to others. But i kinda like the idea that you “could” if you really wanted to.

You do see “PoE Barbs” play Bow builds from time to time. Which isnt something that Diablo games allow. Which to me is a little bit of a shame. Diablo games are very “pidgeonholy” in that you dont have a lot of options on what to do with skills.

Something like cast on crit in PoE is one of the most played and loved archetypes in the game. Everytime you crit with Whirlwind for example you cast a spell. So you spin around proccing chain lightning all over for example. This is the kind of thing that Diablo doesnt support or allow.

19

Missing support for Bow Barbs and the like is exactly what is wrong with Blizzards “modern” D3 and D4 class design. A disgrace tbh.

Just dont have class restrictions on items etc. and let people do unusual stuff if they want to.

20

Finding that crazy unexpected stuff is the most fun part. Like, no one expected this cute lil sorceress to wield a mighty 2H axe, and surprise, if she does it, then crazy awesome stuff can happen that no one saw coming.

The problem is when they begin to limit what the player can wear or which set of things they are allowed to do, it limits creativity. And creativity is 90 percent of what these games are meant to be about.

3 Likes