D4 lvl system— Diablo is not Wow

General Discussion
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Could we stop this idea about an endgame level system in which the game starts at level 40? An expansion is not supposed to make previous Blizzard products disposable.

  • Could we stop this insanity of everybody level 40 ?? An RPG is supposed to allow the fantasy of distinction among players. Could we stop this silly norm of uniformism. The same Ford-T, wealth and character ??

  • Everybody the same level running in town defeats the idea of realistic and diverse world building.

  • Sense of achievement can also be content, rewards, or additional game mechanisms. If the System-team needs more frequent dopamine rewards, Art team can take care of it.

Diablo II did not even have an increased level cap with its the expansion. But I recognize increasing level cap for the multi expansions could be necessary. If the devs are worried that casual/late players can’t catch up, all we need to have is to:

  • simply update the leveling curve for the new expansion and for the converted characters . Look at the graphic.
  • Have a system a with an asymptote approach, in which most end game is at 30 just like D2’s endgame is at 70. (D2 prevents power leveling with exp malus when too low level Link)
  • “Paragon, Ultragon or Parthenon” won’t make leveling more prestigious. Sense of achievement is differentiation. Players can also differentiate themselves through gameplay : a level 32 should be able to kill a level 36 with the right decisions, gear and skill.
  • There should be room to make a break, to play some d4 Vanilla. To make some progress even after the release of expansions.
  • Every expansion should remain a “standalone” with a continuous sense of progression and small gains. Just like a competition driver can go back to Nascar, Indianapolis, formula 1. Competition does not stop. If you show care for each product, people won’t feel cheated and buy all expansions. The most recent being the most played of course.

Build an ecosystem. Expansions with added features, game mechanics, art and content that don’t make previous versions obsolete. This is why some players left WOW. Don’t make a linear level system that invalidates to force the next purchase.

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All you people with your hard rules for RPGs, when none outside assuming a role that is not your own.

Really this was a long winded post to say because you don’t like post leveling progression Diablo shouldn’t have it.

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So, you suspect further expansions will have “top content” added on top of current leveling system ? :thinking:, I’d say there’s that chance, if the level camp was 50 would be much confident but with the 40… yeah, there’s that, BUT doubt it will be like D3/WoW tbh

Not THAT concerned, at least not yet… Think we’re waaay back to even consider about that particular problem tbh, who knows, maybe will, however, would strongly advice that just because the power gain system is multiplicative, the progression one doesn’t have to be exponential (i.e. just because a max level character doesn’t have to have 15% more power than a character that’s one level below, could “time” it so that most power gain per level is somewhere lower, say around 33 or so so that the last several levels are different but not drastically different and the last several levels of gear are still “in” for use)

Not concerned yet about the expansion though… :slight_smile:

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I totally agree with Olbat :

  • Leveling curve should be much closer to the one in D2 (completists can reach their goal, others can enjoy great power without spending so much hours, while still feeling some sense of progression)
  • The end game progression system is only made necessary when it’s so easy to reach max level and quickly find yourself not having anything interesting to do other than grinding. In D2, uniques’ level requirements gave you an ongoing mission that kept going until a certain level. I really dislike “post max level” leveling systems, it’s a very unattractive idea : weak incentive but that really add up in the end… If you’re going to give incentive for playing, make it through normal leveling.
  • In D4 I believe there should be a crafting system that allows you to create new interesting piece of gear, but also improve the gear you use… this can also be a great solution to fixed level requirements for uniques that become useless as you level : Peasant crown for instance, is low level in D2. Crafting already allowed you to change the tiers of the item, from normal to exceptional to elite, but that was not enough to make it relevant. There could be a possibility to increase the stats, unlock new hidden stats and bonuses, or like in POD, allow you to roll more sockets in the items (The skin of vipermagi was made of serpentskin armor (2 sockets max) but upgrading it to exceptional increased the defense of the armor and allowed to roll 4 sockets).
  • Expansions should not make your characters and their gear irrelevant (that would be partly fixed with the last point… but still it sucks). I got to level 40 and was at the top of my game, now I have to gain 20 more levels, with all of my characters. Skill cap should NOT be modified… if it is, it should follow Olbat’s graph. What is it to gain? Fake sense of content added?
  • What is philosophically end game content in an open world, not strictly linear game? It’s just called content and should be available before reaching max level. I understand if some use level caps for some content, which can reinforce the sense of completion, but should not be limited to max level like in D3.
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If we included Diablo Immortal (lv60) and assuming the D4 level system (lv40) is the same as D3 (lv70).

Then we will have 3 modern Diablo games with a level cap + paragon system.

This doesn’t look and sound good for D2 players here as it made D2 feels like a minority here.

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Agree with the premise here. Leveling has become such an afterthought in MMOs in general. I mean, you usually get your first level before you even kill your first enemy, it’s really silly. Usually lvl 20 in a couple hours of gameplay… it’s just obnoxiously fast and when you can’t create content fast enough to keep that kind of pace it always ends in running out of things to do.

One idea is to soft cap levels so it becomes very hard past a certain point. At that point you could have a slider that puts exp towards paragon instead. Would be cool to have an option of how much toward reg exp vs paragon.

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Considering this is the model Blizzard will use for WoW Classic going forward, maybe you should demand that Diablo is WoW :smiley:
Anyway yeah, being able to keep playing characters without the expansions would be a sensible thing to allow.
Cant imagine it is something I would ever use myself, but having it would do no harm, and presumably not take much extra dev resources. As long as people understood that old game modes might be unsupported if problems/bugs appeared.

As for max lvl characters. I dont have any strong opinions on it. For the longest time I considered having a max lvl everyone are expected to hit, as the best solution. Because it makes balancing easier. But I have come around to preferring D2/PoEs lvling. While somewhat harder to balance, it has some benefits. As it offers something for those who desire “paragon lvling” while also not having the endless lvling issue paragon have, nor the shared paragon between characters.

So a system where you get to “end-game” around lvl 35, and then the last 5 lvls offer little reward and take a lot more time, sure. Sounds fine.

In any case, I strongly agree that lvling should be impactful, meaningful and fill a significant part of game.
But, while a easy to reach lvl cap might not be the best, an endless lvling system is much, much worse.

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To be fair, the D2 players that hate modern Diablo are the minority of both the overall Diablo playerbase and the minority of the D2 playerbase.

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Reading your comment makes me think of something that really annoys me. Based on the opinion that increasing level cap with expansion is detrimental to the game and gaming experience

Max level is planned to start at 40… But you will get multiple skill points per level, right? In my opinion, adding points per level does not add the fun. It basically comes down to the same thing but you have less impact with each point (which I’m not a big fan of… like in Grim Dawn where you have to waste so many skill points to unlock skills). Then increase cap level already and give us 1 skill point per level.

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D4 it is not a subscription model. I don’t hope, though I believe multiple expansions are the plan. Because the development costs are high, more than other games. D4 artstyle is very demanding. And I believe the community would embrace the idea to support further content production.

And in this case many early design decisions are crucial because it casts the foundations of each following expansions/content.

Yet you are right : especially in the case of a single expansion, the game could work without cap level increase.

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High cost? Blizz have succesful microtransaction, it helps a ton, even if average player spends just 10 euros per month. Biggest problem is to make interesting stuff, game industry is old and players have seen almost everything. I would consider using celebrities like Cyberpunk did with Keanu.

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I saw it coming.
They only build end-game sports games because they are the easiest to implement and they can make money permanently with a spiral of items, numbers, comparison and the hamster wheel and make people believe that they play good RPGs.

That with such an interpretation it is already clear that D4 will be 39 levels flat in terms of content and not perceived as a real game, is out of the question.
With such a system, you will always immediately have the feeling that you just want to get through, to finally be able to join in and play up to the final level, only to realize over time that when you’re max level, you’re actually just getting into a cycle of never-ending tunnel systems and that in the end it all has nothing at all to do with a real RPG game.

As it seems, D2R could become the real Diablo game of the next 10-15 years, if they will even try to create another Diablo game… Maybe finally then as a real game for the player community and not such a looting model for corporate accounts.

So who expects a Diablo 4, with the gameplay from D1 and D2, will find themselves in a D3WoW with fine tuning as it looks.
Blizzard’s actual objective can be read out so wonderful.
A bitter pill… but actually not entirely unexpected.
They just don’t give us any real games anymore…

They are products without a soul, because the people who are in charge now run the game companies as pure profit enterprises. In the past, the game companies were people who implemented their cool ideas for worlds that they themselves really enjoyed.
That’s gone… Corporations see games as commodities. They hire programmers who cobble together fantasy worlds instead of the baking program for the oven or the voice control for the toilet bowl… they don’t care what code they implement as long as it’s a paid job that pays their bills.
And the tops don’t care about making a cool game, it’s just a different kind of commodity. Instead of making cheap toasters that really only outlast the warranty period so that new ones are bought as soon as possible, they are now making glossy games on the outside and looking for sources of profit at the core.

I’m afraid that this simply won’t get any better.

Our interests and desires are diametrically opposed to the goals and intentions of the makers, due to the system…

I have been observing this for more than 15 years now… Since the big money have bought up the game market as a publisher, it goes downhill in terms of content, even if it sparkles on the outside.

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Skill tree/talent tree model most certainly makes this so.

I agree whole heartedly. So far, I don’t believe that they’ve determined what the ‘ideal middle ground’ for reaching each next level and inevitably the eventuality of max level will be facilitated as.

A low level, maximum level cap that takes some work to reach is far superior to a system that continues to drag on and on.

Acquisition without forfeiture will still pose an insurmountable problem however.

A low level, maximum level cap that only takes a few weeks or months to reach can still be drawn out. Your character can age and eventually die.

So long as once I acquire, I can’t lose, the inevitable aftermath of this is greater quantities of time investment for smaller and smaller gains.

Which ultimately detracts from the initial leveling experience.

I’d rather enjoy every single level up to the maximum level without it taking years and creating a new character and doing it again than having a dull, “I don’t want to keep doing this anymore” type of experience.

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OP
Look at D3
it’s post leveling content cc’ing and finding a dedicated group to clear a rift.
Not bad.
Shouldn’t be the game tho, and it is the entire game.

Look at D2
post leveling content is finding very rare items.
Like a lottery ticket costing time, or, finding gold or something.

Comboing both in the same game is ideal.
Choosing one over the other rare items is way, way more fun to experience than clearing a rift with a dedicated group because if you dont have some top tier 1 group you can never be ‘near the top’ with some casual group.

So D2 caters to the solo player, D3 only caters to the hardcore group player who puts in massive amts of time to play the endgame content. See in D2 you can “win” early, by finding a really rare item w/o a massive amt of time, it’s unlikely but can happen. Like you can find idk some circlet like 50 hours into farming or something or 2. In D3 you cant ‘win’ unless you continually keep grinding and when you win you can be surpassed within the day. You can’t win early with D3, its a time function game, D2 is not always that and is solo catered bc it’s about gear not time and a group.

Both is easily the best choice, but d2’s is clearly more fun for the ppl at home not in a streamer group playing major amts of time sacrificing like a full time job to do so. Its like one game is about gear, one is not, bc incremental upgrades aren’t the same as a whole new item. And, rare new items dont even exist in the latter.

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I do understand the need for a continuous progression, I’d also enjoy one.

But Rifts and additional raw power create a linear number inflation making pvp impossible to balance and inconsistent world building. Can’t progression simply be a constant seek of smaller improvements ? Once leveling up becomes slower, one can focus on secondary affixes instead of main stats to increase through items or looking for the highest rolls.

More variables as limiting factors
For example, I like the idea of working around character’s limiting factors and weak points. Like getting the right motor oil, transmission or coolant liquid.

As inspired from Thorodan’s interesting long list of affixes:

One could have a list of affixes to play with, the idea is competitive depth, giving specializations and weaknesses to characters, and an room for smaller and smaller improvements as we reach top levels. Fast hit recovery was in d2 an example of limiting factor, but they can exist in many different and horizontal ways. For example :

  • Stag-bar recovery speed
  • Resistances
  • Reducing cast animation time
  • Increased influence benefices from weather
  • Increased duration the horse can ride without fatigue
    …


The goal is to

  • prevent players from focusing only on their strengths and maximizing main stats. Which would benefit to both diverse PVE and PVP.
  • is an incentive to change gear in regards to the situation.

Easy to learn, difficult to master
In my opinion and as camvince said, the key is to disable the full list at the beginning of the game. But only enabling and displaying them as we progress.
And even at later stages, while the competitive player cares, casuals don’t have to care, they can just be slower. Though at some point in the game, they might have to care if they really want to invest in the game. This is good to prevents number inflation of main stats.

A bit like starches and proteins suffice for the everyday basics, but at some point the body will need vitamins minerals or cause dysfunction.

So it is essentially an idea to prevent damage inflation while keeping a compact and challenging leveling system.

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Not sure I understand it correctly.
If you can endlessly improve your weaknesses, they stop being weaknesses.
No matter how an endless power system is designed, it seems like it will always be bad.

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The limiting factor could be in relation to a monster or opponent character’s own strength or level. It can be a variable like d2’s shield’s block. It is just an idea. Even d2’s resistance are variables.

And by endless here, I mean of course that the gear improvement gains get smaller and rarer. Just like in my first graphic. But perhaps my post was not self explanatory.

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But we can exclude needing to fi d a group to clear said content.