They said, they are going to increase the total number of affixes that roll on blue and yellow items, yet they showed 2 yellow items with only 4 affixes…
This is kinda monkaS
rares in diablo 2 roll up to 8 different affixes.
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If I loot an armor-item, and I think about the armor stat, it would mean that it is significant for a goal, that goal is usually to have to worry less about injuries or to have lower apm for a smoother experience. Well then just construct a system of tiers, let us say that you have X tiers of armor, and that the total points of armor you have across your armor-items would put you in a tier, this tier would reduce the damage you receive, the CC time, or maybe decrease your movespeed. For example I have a piece with 1333 armor (chest) and a piece with 666 armor (helmet) and another piece with either 1 or 0 armor, that would put me either in the lower or higher tier of armor. This means that overall I don’t have to think too much about this useless stat except to move between tier, which might be just enough to get my interest, but just to have a bland armor total is useless.
do you mean, cutting down, damage calculations to just a few tiers like 100,200,300…1000…5000? XD
well, easier maths for the devs and no more min maxing for players xD
One concerning thing I noticed about the item examples in the post was how close the stat requirements were to each other on a single item for the stat-dependent affixes. If the stat requirements for the different affixes on items are so close, it will likely make items with affixes from multiple different stat groups worthless because you’ll almost certainly either only be able to use one of the affixes -or- if you do attempt a hybrid build it probably just won’t be worth it because you’d just have to equip lower level items with less power to gain the effects of affixes from different stat groups (unless you just eventually get enough of each stat to where you can use basically every, which would also be terrible design and kill decision making). The payoff for going with a hybrid build should be not getting access to the higher power level affixes though, not being forced to equip low level gear with low attack/defense.
They need to have larger variances in the stat-dependent affixes. For example, an item that has one higher power level affix from the demonic group that requires 155 demonic power stat and one lower power level affix from the angelic power group that may only requires 45 angelic power. Just judging off the examples they gave an item would more likely have a demonic power affix that requires 155 and an angelic power affix that requires like 140, which it concerning and I hope they consider this.
Also, again, please just use familiar stats like strength, dexterity, intelligence and spirit that give you a better idea of what types of affixes they will open up and go with the class/build fantasy better. Demonic power, angelic power and ancestral power sounds so cheesy. Don’t be different just to be different.
Only good news in Part II, that’s satisfying for what I can say.
The Demonic, Angelic and Ancestral affixes is a good way to take a turn for customization in a meaningful way for multi & single players.
As being a part of the character’s gameplay creation these new affixes could be a part of the role that a player can assume on a team, from DPS to CC to Heal. And this without sacrifyng the single player gameplay.
Remembering my Rogue on D1, she had a bunch of blue items, meaning that few stats was all the way to the top while she had nasty waeknesses, the 3 new affixes means that this kind of build will be once again possible without being too punishing.
Good thing about Ancient Legendary removed, that’s too much a WoW thing, items have to be relevant for something, somewhere. Scraps shouldn’t be identified as a color, my brain stops working when I salvage blue & yellow on D3
2 Likes
I like the idea of the ancient items gone as they are conceived in D3. Same legendary item with a superior quality. Which doesn’t make sense to me.
BUUUT
I would name Ancient Items to a subset of legendary items that rumours and legends speak about, they are broken into pieces and need to be re-collected and re-assembled. Completing one should feel like completing a high end runeword in D2, instead of runes, the different parts that make the item, but useless on their own.
Check this thread for more ideas: [D4] Itemization Ideas ⚔
About Attack → Weapons, Defense → Armor I’m fine. But what about gloves and boots etc…? They are armor slots, but traditionally they have been attached to some attack and utility stats. For instance, attack speed on gloves and movement speed on boots.
Angelic, Demonic and Ancestral… ok, stats now unlock bonuses. At first seems like a good idea that gives a lot to play with.
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My post became quite Long, so I put in a seperate Topic… but here is it anyway
TL:DR
Create restricted openness with the affixes on items; create synergies, hard-caps and BIP-bonuses to the stats to ensure all ways are viable. All make sense, all are useable - not better than the other, highly depending on how you use them and to what attributes they are linked; Opening a complete new way to experience the character, there not being only one way to express it/him but many, neither being too strong as to making the rest of the System useless, nor so weak as to nullify the process in itself.
Sections :
I: Hard caps make it tangible
II: Restrictions in many, not few ways - Affixes and stats
III: Diminishing Return make it viable
IV: Break-even-points and synergies make it cross-viable
Read on for the Explanation
___________________________________________________________________,
Angelic, Demonic and Ancestral
So lets talk about the new stats and how they interplay with affixes. In a way, they are a representation of int/dex/str - just in a more “play-style” variante.
So what Attributes in other games did wrong, imo, was the “scale and win” character of these.
Which means that you’d win by stacking either/or. Hybrid - or a “non-specified” way of Building your character was hardly promoted, or much more difficult, or much less rewarding.
The thing here is not "how to solve this problem of enabling hybrid being as powerful as being a plain 1-stat’er, e.g. a mix of demonic and angelic being as interesting and powerful of a choice as going plain demonic or plain angelic.
The solution here is to create a system that makes hybrid the norm by not even creating the problem of there being something like a “hybrid” as distinct to the "main (= most efficient) way to go, which is elliminated by eliminating single-source-overpowering.
You should rely on the careful choice of your resourcess - and not on the stacking of least resources the highest
That means that each effect could contribute in many different ways, in a varying, limited but defining and impactful way - creating exciting possibilities and new ways beyond just “stack A and be role A, with role A playstyle and role A affixes” - e.g. angelic being linked to defensive stats/skill adds, demonic to offensive ones, etc.
This could be reached by creating break-points, by creating synergies, by creating relational hard-caps that give certain bonuses in certain situations, granting different Benefits - not stronger ones.
That means that each value is in itself valueable, and cant be scaled to a place that makes it mandatory. E.g. a barb build on any of these stats should be more or less viable.
Lets dive into some examples of what this could mean.
- Hard Caps make it tangible
Lets say 1 ancestral power stat increases the Chance of on-hit effects by 1%. So a 10% becomes 10,1% Chance with one point, and 50 points would make it a feasable 15% proc Chance.
So now we can assume that there will be caps on how much stat you can ideally gain from rares and most legendaries and that this cap is 200 total points.
I now know that I could get a 30% proc Chance from a 10% Chance with 200 points spend in ancestral. I weigh that out with the other bonuses (DoT/Debuff Duration or heal/buffduration) and the implicit armor affixes that they all bring along with them.
Now every choice has its scale.
This is one way to create hard caps and to broaden the decision making, by not making us too “stat-based”: every choice has its meaning and value, but it has its end.
This opens up space for more considerate options to flourish. With hard caps, we can now take into consideration how stats will be intertwained with our gear choosing:
- Restrictions in many, not few ways - Affixes open up possibilities
Which affixes are available to what stat; can affixes be available to two of the stats, but not the third? Does it need some demonic (40), because it is a demonic power, but you could use it as an angelic-oriented char, but you’d need considerably more of the stat to compensate for that (e.g. stat +70%) - so a 40 demonic requirement would now be a 68 angelic requirement. A 100 demonic requirement would be a 170 angelic requirement?
This way affixes could still remain value specifically to their assigned stat, but be available to a stat that could inherently utilize that Attribute or skill without being its “main”. E.g. ancestral gives 15% crit Chance with 55 Points, but angelic can have it with 75 or 95 or whatever higher requirement, and demonic cant have it at all because its DoT based.
+2 to Hydra skill could be mainly demonic with 75 Points, but both angelic and ancestral could have it with say 130 Points in angelic or ancestral.
So there is cross-and-hybrid availability to Affixes on gear; just in a much different manner, enabling builds and utilization that wasnt as inherently designed (e.g. barbarian = str), but leaves much room for personal Interpretation within the System itself - having restrictions, just going into much more many directions!
So I can either mix roles (e.g. half angelic half demonic, or half angelic and demonic/ancestral mixed the other half) and define my gear still in many possible ways, or I can choose a role (or playstyle) - e.g. main demonic; and still have access to gear and Affixes from others, but with more effort involved.
This sounds super complicated at first, but what it really does is - in Theory - simply taking all choices, and adding some layers of choice on top.
So if I want to Play with skills X and Y based on gear Affixes G, H and D; whilst skill X and Y are mainly compatible with demonic and ancenstral stats in my build, but two of the Affixes I Need - G and H - are more angelic powers. But in this system they are partly assigned to either demonic or ancenstral but with a higher requirement of points.
So I can achieve my goal through another way, or mix however I want
For that to further work out, there could be diminishing Returns for each stat, and Break-even-points.
- diminishing Return
So you would get more and less at the same time.
E.g. 200 max points, angelic gets 1,8% more proc Chance additive per Point for the first 50 points, then 1,5% for the next, then 1,2% for the next, and 0,9% for the last.
With initial 10% proc Chance, we’d get
50 Points invested = 19% proc Chance
100 points invested = 26,5% proc Chance
150 points invested = 32,5% proc Chance
200 points invested = 37% proc chance
So we can see how investing heavily is worth it, but investing a bit does also lots.
- Break-even-points and synergies
BIP:
First BIP: Gaining 70 points in ancestral gives a flat +0,1% total increase in proc Chance. So granted you have 70 points invested, which makes a 10% proc Chance a 22% proc Chance … you`d get 10% on top of that, which makes it 23,2%.
Second BIP: Gaining 140 points in ancestral gives a flat +0,15% total increase in proc Chance. 140 points make it 31,3% proc Chance inititally, added 0,15% makes it 35,99%
Third BIP: 190 points in ancestral gives a flat 2% total increase. 190 points make it 35,6% proc Chance initially, added 0,3% makes it 42,7%
So with this new BIPs added, we have a new scale:
With initial 10% proc Chance, we’d get
50 Points invested = 19% proc Chance
100 points invested = 28,6% proc Chance (BIP at 70, +10% total)
150 points invested = 37,4% proc Chance (BIP at 140, +15% total)
200 points invested = 44,4% proc Chance (BIP at 190, +20% total)
Synergies:
If you have 100 points assigned to a stat, the other 2 stats are upgraded by 2 Tiers.
So if you have 100 points in ancestral, 20 in demonic and 75 in angelic - then your angelic jumps from BIP 1 to BIP 3 (lvl 190 bonus). Demonic jumps from Bip 0 to BIP 2 (lvl 140 Bonus).
If ancestral was the one with the 75 and would receive this Synergy, then it would gain 0,2% instead of 0,1%, increasing the initial 22,8% from its 0,1% BIP tier 1 to a 0,2% BIP Tier 3, granting 27,4%.
Given that the synergized 75 Point ancestral has 27,4% proc Chance and the unsynergized 100 Point ancestral has 28,6% - we can see where this is going. We can get a stable amount of a value - and yet not nullify other Options. If we`d have liked to put the points all into ancestral (175), and not gain the Synergy - then we’d have gotten over 40% proc - which is amazing too, but doesnt nullify the synergized stat in any way neither.
This means that the higher stat can not reach second BIP, but brings up the lower stat to a good Level. So you can coose to have
- one singular highest BIP stat, being super viable alone, granting no synergies
- one high stat at BIP 1 (100-130 points) synergizing a second medium stat (70-100 points) maxed to highest BIP, making both quite viable together - the last stat has 0-30 stats at BIP2, so neglectable
- one high stat at BIP 1 (100 points) synergizing the two other stats (each 45-55 points invested) to BIP 2, with all the bonuses givining some viable stats alltogether making a full hybrid
This way all combinations are viable. All make sense, all are useable - not better than the other, highly depending on how you use them; to what Attributes they are linked; Opening a complete new way to experience the character, but being only one way to express it/him, neither being too strong as to making the rest of the System useless, nor so weak as to nullify the process in itself.
This way (or any other) would make it an interesting contribution to the whole of the character customization in an interesting way. Tell me your thoughts / Feedback, would love to discuss
2 Likes
Which is why one thing I really think they need to do is make “Power requirement stats” count as a single affix on an item - always offering 3 sub-stats, one for each power.
In most cases you will (hopefully) only manage to get one of these stats (unless you go hybrid, with all the drawbacks that comes with) - so it should also only take up one affix slot (of course an item could potentially roll with multiple power affixes, but again with each offering 3 sub stats)
I agree with this, I don’t want to find a legendary and not be excited. I don’t want to see a bunch or rares with mixed legendary powers either. I’d rather have the consumables be unique or perhaps have the ability to alter an existing stat on a rare item to be exactly to your liking.
When I find a legendary, it should be super exciting, it should hopefully be an upgrade, and if not, it should still mean I can use that item in another way such as trade, craft, or keep for another character.
Would like to give you 1000 more likes. There should be a use of “normal” attacks, no skill use involved. Attack should add to those normal attacks and maybe alter some melee attack skills, but please no spells.
I don’t think it means always best in slot, just that they can be. Or that they at least compare instead of being completely detrimental to your build.
OFC this is going to be even more prominently seen with items no longer being the primary avenue to power. Splitting up power across a bunch of systems and sources will mean that having 100% potential item power vs 90% potential item power won’t be nearly as noticeable… hopefully
Items
What I’d like to see, is when an item drops, no matter the rarity, I should feel inclined to pick it up and review it as it should be useful in some way. Less is More. I don’t like the idea of running past stuff that drops on the ground. I should feel special that I found something. I should always want to pick up everything.
2 Likes
General thoughts: D3’s system was a mess. I felt like I was having my hand held when deciding what to use, and legendaries dropped like candy which took from their value.
As for the new stat based requirements, I think that’s a step in the right direction. Giving players more options as to how they approach playing the game, and designing their character, is always a good idea. It gives depth to the items and gives the impression to the player that they are in control of their destiny. Obviously like D3, you don’t want all the focus to be on items, but luckily the developers are steering from that.
Atk/Def removed from items is good. We didn’t need it in D2, so we don’t need it in 4.
As for ancient legendaries, I don’t really understand the concept. I played maybe 100-200 hours of D3, so I didn’t figure out everything nor remember. One thing I’ll say about rarity, is that a good rarity of items system is truly important. Simply getting a legendary/unique every 5 minutes isn’t fun. It detracts from their value, and how special they feel. So giving us items like in D2, that had extremely low drop rates is more than fine. Let people grind and be extremely happy when they get something special.
I think it would be an interesting concept for rare items to have bonuses for equipping multiple rare items. By example:
Rare item base stat: +10% cold resist
Rare item bonus stat: +5% cold resist for each equipped rare
This kind of bonus stat could lead to very interesting gear combinations and have the possibility of using rares end game. Maybe could be extended to white and blue items or even cross between white and blue items (example: rare item that has +x% for each white item equipped). The combinations could be endless and make rares exciting to get because of the potential. Maybe would need some kind of caps. Seems kind of fun to see the variety of gear “junk builds” you could get.
Why does it have to be called Angelic and Demonic? You can have angel-themed debuffs… angels can fight too. Same with demon-themed buffs.
My Feedback regarding the post: I don’t like the idea of unlocking an affix on an item I got by stacking stats (ancestral/demonic/angelic), I like the idea of these stats, and I think they should be on items as affixes if they choose to keep this system. the reason I don’t like this is because, I think will be frustrating to get an item with a really cool affix thats locked behind this stat stacking mechanic, to use such item with this affix unlocked I would need to change other gear pieces to get X amount of demonic power for example just to unlock the affix of the amazing item I got. this tradeoff I don’t think is very interesting. UNLESS there is like some sort of infusing mechanic in the game that allows me to spend X amount of resources(materials for example) to infuse my item with demonic power, now that I think Is more interesting cuz this way I won’t need to damage my build by taking off items just to stack demonic power, and allows freedom of customization. of course there has to be some restrictions like, 1 infusion maximum per item. there can also be like an exchanging mechanic, that u turn X amount of for example angelic power of an item into X amount of demonic power, allowing you to focus your items on a specific build type your are going for, again, more freedom. What would maybe be interesting is, in the endgame after you reach max level u can unlock Angelic/demonic/ancestral “skill” trees, and to unlock the skills of these trees u need to stack power of each type but, u can’t have a huge amount of all kinds of power stats due to gear and infusion limitations, so you will have to make decisions of, focusing on more of a demonic kind of character, or ancestral? or a hybrid with few points? just some random ideas of what can be done with this mechanic.
I feel mixed ways about this, I think everyone likes the idea of uniques kind of coming back…
but i don’t want to end up having a system where for my particular build the best item to wear is a rare chest piece with the affix of a legendary chest piece.
I’m completely okay with taking a legendary chest piece’s affix and placing it on a rare bracer and that’s my best in slot bracer… But i shouldn’t be forced to hunt for a consumable to make a rare item my new BIS over the actual legendary itself.
That being said I could see this type of problem mitigated and compromised by saying “of the 50 different affixes this legendary can roll only 20 of them” that way you’re giving flavor to the legendary item but you’re not as heavily enforcing the idea that some builds will need to replace a legendary with it’s rare version
TLDR; I don’t want a world where my BIS is to wear a yellow chest piece with the legendary chest piece’s affix. At most a BIS yellow should contain a different item slot’s legendary affix, (bracers with a legendary chest piece’s affix)
Saw the amulet with crit damage. Please no more crit damage, crit chance is fine. I don’t mind players investing in crit chance to get a healthy 20-30% chance to do… double damage. But please remove the ridiculous +400% crit damage stacking.
5 Likes
I think it’s important to clarify that they never said this would be the case, they’re increasing the affix count for blues, yellows, and legendaries. per the update.
So even if it’s 6 rare affixes and legendaries have 6 affixes + legendary affix it’d be at best even between a rare with a legendary affix and the legendary itself.
This means a yellow could be BIS but doesn’t have to be.
Will it still mean you probably want a legendary affix on every item slot? yes. But i personally don’t think that’s such a bad thing, if they design the legendary affixes to be more about changing how an ability interacts than just how much damage it does (which seems to be their intent)
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That wouldn’t happen with what I said. I mean it would happen for some cases. But the rest of what I said (that you didn’t quote) is that legendary affixes could offer affixes that have no stat requirements.
Example:
legendary chest Always rolls:
All Resists
Life
Crushing Blow
+2 skill (random skill - similar to d2 Ormus robes).
From what we saw, Crushing blow and + skills can have different requirements of stats. But you can make it where legendaries have no stat requirement for their affixes. Which in my opinion provides a lot of incentive of using legendary instead of a rare with the legendary affix. But you can make arguments for both (for instance if you don’t need the stats provided by the legendary).
As it is now, there is no difference between rares and legendaries once the new item to add affixes to rares is implemented. Rares just become legendaries with extra steps. Which is nice for increasing obtainability of gear, but it does grey the line between rares and legendaries.