[D4] Evade skill - animation stop frame

[doctor-1137]

Why the Evade skill has so annouing stop frame in its animation ?

Also many of animations have clunky stop frames (eg jumping).

Blizz pls, pay attention for it.
I hope its beacause an Alpha statement.

[Lolli42-2538]

probably because it makes it look physically more correct and less 2001

[clueso-2790]

@doctor-1137

Why the Evade skill has so annouing stop frame in its animation ?

The intention behind that - according to the devs - is so you can not spam it.

I think the intent is good, but not the solution.

I much rather would like to see a separate Resource that is specifically used for Sidesteps / Dodgerolls / Evade that gets consumed when you use the Evade and then remove the interrupt frame so that it does not feel so clunky to use.

This resource should be limited and only fill up slowly or at a medium pace, so you can not spam the Evade, but it would feel so much better to use.

[clueso-2790]

A year ago or so I made a mock-up image for Diablo 3 where there is such a resource specifically for Evade / Dodgerolls / Sidesteps / etc.

It is the smaller orb next to Fury Orb.
That resource would only fill up slowly or at a medium pace and would only be consumed by when you use the Evade.

[Azimuth-2255]

probably because it makes it look physically more correct and less 2001

Yes, I love how it looks. All character animations should be as realistic as possible (even if this realism will be of Marvel films level).

[doctor-1137]

@Lolli42-2538

probably because it makes it look physically more correct and less 2001

@Azimuth-2255

Yes, I love how it looks. All character animations should be as realistic as possible (even if this realism will be of Marvel films level).

I’m afraid you didn’t understand what I mean.

Watch the official Rogue gameplay on Youtube on 0.25 speed.
There is technical bug - not realism.

[Azimuth-2255]

You mean bad transtion between different animations?

[Lolli42-2538]

Its pretty easy
If the dash animation let’s you move over the map faster than normal running, its being abused and the gameplay will look like a joke
That’s being prevented

[doctor-1137]

@clueso-2790

A year ago or so I made a mock-up image

This is ‘Stamina Bar 2.0’ from D2

@Azimuth-2255

You mean bad transtion between different animations?

Yes. There should be a transition animation, eg pre-jump squat.

Look also how Rogue jump over the abyss (in the same video). Not 2021 quality.
So I hope Blizz will notice that.

[clueso-2790]

@doctor-1137

@clueso-2790

A year ago or so I made a mock-up image

This is ‘Stamina Bar 2.0’ from D2

Actually it is the Stamina Bar from Median XL.

Stamina in Diablo 2 was basically unlimited when you reached the mid-game and therefore it was basically irelevant.

This “Stamina” however only has a limited amount and only regenerates slowly, even in the endgame, …

… so you would not be able to spam Evade / Dodgerolls / Sidesteps, etc, but it would have the positive effect that the interrupt frame could be removed, which would make the use of this ability feel so much better.

[Beefhammer-1932]

Go a head and dodge or roll away from something, it takes a second to gather you balance and continue on. But you want a second magical resource that makes no sense.

Sure it’s clunky, that’s the point. It not a spammable ability and ine you need to think about using. I could use it to get if thebway, but the add near by could do considerable damage when I’m frame locked for a second, so maybe I’ll use my defensive CD, take out the adds, then use it at a better time.

I do wonder how many people enjoyed hit stun because it was immersive and made sense, even though it made combat clunky(until breakpoints), but find this breaks immersion, doesn’t make sense, and is clunky? Because it’s basically the same thing. Get hut hard or often quickly you are slower to act. Dodge awaybfrom something and you need a sec to regain your bearings.

[clueso-2790]

@Beefhammer-1932

Go a head and dodge or roll away from something, it takes a second to gather you balance and continue on.

Go ahead and try to to eat and drink nothing for days, without sleep, etc, getting hit by downward smash from a giant hammer on your head and your legs without getting any bones crushed…

… doesn’t make sense… but that is not the issue here, the issue is that the combat would feel less clunky.

@Beefhammer-1932

But you want a second magical resource that makes no sense.

Not magical, it is just for Evade / Dodgerolls, etc. Games like Wolcen already have that and the Dodgerolls in combination with this resource work fine, especially now that you can roll through enemies without collision.

@Beefhammer-1932

Sure it’s clunky, that’s the point.

Doesn’t mean it is good.

@Beefhammer-1932

It not a spammable ability and ine you need to think about using.

And so you had to do it with the Evade / Dodgeroll costing resource, as Evade having its own resource and having to think about when to use it are not mutually exclusive.

@Beefhammer-1932

I do wonder how many people enjoyed hit stun because it was immersive and made sense, even though it made combat clunky(until breakpoints),

I actually enjoyed Faster Hit Recovery (at least for the most part) and I advocated for a similar system coming back in D4 as you can see here:

Hit recovery Diablo 4

I think they should have replaced Hit Recovery with a Stagger Mechanic on your character. Imagine that the XP Bar on your character now moves down to the bottom of the UI and on top of your Skill Bar there now is the Stagger Bar for your character. Every hit you take from enemies adds a certain amount of Stagger, depending on the attack. Some attacks can add less Stagger to your char, others more. Once the Stagger Bar is full, you get microstunned for x seconds and the Stagger Bar deplete…

My suggestion was basically to give your character a Stagger Meter that fills up when you get hit or block, and once it is full, you get micro stunned.

This basically means that you will not as easily get stunlocked as the “FHR” first has to build up over a certain period of time, but you still would want to avoid fighting too many enemies at once, certainly when enemies are around that also do heavy hits which would apply more Stagger…

… and it also would make the combat feel better (due to less frequent stunlocks) while still remaining tactical and punishing if you don’t plan well.

So a Stagger Meter as a new FHR / FBR and a Resource for Evade / Dodgerolls without its interrupt/recovery frame both keep all the positive effects, while removing the negatives.

[Azimuth-2255]

@doctor-1137

Yes. There should be a transition animation, eg pre-jump squat.

Look also how Rogue jump over the abyss (in the same video). Not 2021 quality.
So I hope Blizz will notice that.

Ay yes I ve got what u mean. That’s true, they transit badly from one into another for some reason. Actually I noticed that from the very first blizzcon 19 demo-vid.

[Lolli42-2538]

@clueso-2790

Go ahead and try to to eat and drink nothing for days, without sleep, etc, getting hit by downward smash from a giant hammer on your head and your legs without getting any bones crushed…

… doesn’t make sense… but that is not the issue here, the issue is that the combat would feel less clunky.

thats a bad comparison
our characters also have “realistic” hit animations in ARPGs and recover and raise their arms again after hitting and dont just spin their sword in front like a windmill

theres a difference between “logic” and for the 1000th time immersion.

[Beefhammer-1932]

I suggested a stagger meter for a hit recovery replacement as well a while back.

As for eating, it’s not part of the gameplay. If it were and you could somehow avoid the mechanic that wouldn’t make sense.

As for clunkiness of the dodge mechanic, I have zero issues with it. It’s supposed to be to avoid an attack, not a mobility ability. As Lolli pointed out, if were not clunky and spammable it would be abused for mobility.

[clueso-2790]

@Lolli42-2538

@clueso-2790

Go ahead and try to to eat and drink nothing for days, without sleep, etc, getting hit by downward smash from a giant hammer on your head and your legs without getting any bones crushed…

… doesn’t make sense… but that is not the issue here, the issue is that the combat would feel less clunky.

thats a bad comparison

Sure, not the best comparison, but it at least somewhat servers to illustrate the point.

@Beefhammer-1932

It’s supposed to be to avoid an attack, not a mobility ability.

That is why it is having its own resource, so you can’t spam it like for example a Dodgeroll in many other games that would overall increase your movement speed or traveling distance.

@Beefhammer-1932

As Lolli pointed out, if were not clunky and spammable it would be abused for mobility.

Yes, sure, if it also would be spamable, but it isn’t since its use is limited by a resource that you only have a limited amount available for, which also does only regenerate slowly (unlike in D2)

@Beefhammer-1932

I suggested a stagger meter for a hit recovery replacement as well a while back.

imo Stagger Meter > FHR, so we are on the same boat on that one I guess.

[Shadout-2849]

Wolcen did the dodge stamina resource perfectly fine tbh.
You can use it too often vs. what I want in D4, as it is really meant as a core ability in Wolcen, whereas imo the active dodge should not make other movement skills irrelevant in D4. But that is just a matter of tuning the regen rate.

4 stamina points, each roll takes one point. You can get more points, affect regen rate etc. through skills etc.

Making the dodge slow or clunky to use is bad game design imo. It goes directly against what you want to use a dodge for.

[clueso-2790]

@Shadout-2849

You can use it too often vs. what I want in D4, as it is really meant as a core ability in Wolcen, whereas imo the active dodge should not make other movement skills irrelevant in D4.

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

@Shadout-2849

But that is just a matter of tuning the regen rate.

Neither too high, and neither too low. Love it.

[Lolli42-2538]

well i think the dodge is a bad idea in general
classes already have skills to get out of the way or block or do anything else that is more fitting to their own class theme
most of the time you can just run out of a red circle so whats it all even about

[clueso-2790]

@Lolli42-2538

classes already have skills to get out of the way or block or do anything else that is more fitting to their own class theme
most of the time you can just run out of a red circle so whats it all even about

It reduces the need or even the necessity for taking a skill like Teleport, Leap, etc, but having both an Evasion Ability, as well as a Movement Skill, which ads more Evasion and Mobility and more range on top of that, certainly makes it much better.

The Evasion Ability only allows for a short distance to be traveled, while a Movement Skill allows for a much, much larger distance to be crossed and thereby also to more significantly reposition yourself than the Evasion Ability.

@Lolli42-2538

classes already have skills to get out of the way or block or do anything else that is more fitting to their own class theme

I thought it would be cool if every class has its own Evasion Ability:

Barbarian: Tackle

• a short ranged charge that also knockbacks (minor) enemies

Knight Class: Defensive Stance

• raise your shield in front of you and hold the button to become stationary and gain a bubble that absorbs 60-100% damage.
• Pressing the button costs a larger amount of Stamina and continuing to hold it also drains x Stamina per second.
• Each hit you absorb drains additional Stamina based on how much damage was absorbed, but not more than x Stamina per second.

Druid: Shapeshift: Raven

• shapeshift into a raven so you can fly over the battlefield as long as you press down the button
• costs a larger amount of Stamina when activated and an additional x Stamina while continuing to be in Raven Form

Sorcerer: Blink

• short-ranged Teleport

Rogue I: Sprint

• while pressing the button, your movement speed is greatly increased
• costs x Stamina per second

Rogue II: Side Step / Dodge Roll

• a simple Dodge Roll or a simple Side Step without recovery / interrupt frames
• costs x Stamina per use

Necromancer: Ghost Form

• while holding down the mouse button, you turn into a ghost and you can move through enemies
• costs a larger amount of Stamina when activated and an additional x Stamina while continuing to be in Ghost Form