D3 remake/remaster?

I think partly why Diablo 3 works online, whereas Diablo 4 doesn’t, is that there are leaderboards. Multiplayer games are great for co-op, but that can be done offline with couch co-op. But what really can’t be done is competitive games.

But not just Greater Rift leaderboards, but Conquests as well, which delve into gameplay that’s less grindy. Conquests typically involve speed rather than the ability to grind out and doing them with as little as possible. That’s where the Gauntlet fails. Because while it’s about how fast you can do it, you still need to grind your way to get the gear.

And this is where Diablo 4 has a problem, because the leveling also takes too long. You add conquests to Diablo 4, and all you’ll see are streamers lead them, because most people can’t play 6+ hours on end (at which point, all the conquests will be complete).

This is one of the big fails with Diablo 3 & 4 is that the leveling process is really nothing more than a forced tutorial, and almost nobody likes to play tutorials. Because the bottom line is, the leveling process doesn’t really teach you how to play the game, and it’s just something everyone wants to get through as quickly as possible. Compare that to Diablo 1 & 2, where the leveling was the game. By adding an end game, they killed the game in a way. Diablo 3 eventually made the leveling a trivial nuisance, whereas it’s a major roadblock with 4 at the moment.

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Leveling in D4 has gotten a LOT faster since the last time I played it. Though, to be fair, I stopped playing towards the end of Season 2. So if they HADN’T made progress on this front 4 seasons later, I’d be very disappointed. If you had played more recently than that, perhaps the changes aren’t as drastic from your POV. It took me a few days to reach 60, whereas in D3 it probably took me about an hour.

Though, we should probably point out for posterity that most “functionally complete” D2 builds assumed a character level of like 90 or less. The time it took to get those final 9 levels was STUPIDLY long and “nobody” really did that legitimately. Streamers nowadays would, but they don’t count as normal game experiences, as you’re well aware.

In terms of “the problem” though:

I gotta disagree with you there because a “leaderboard” conceptually doesn’t translate 1:1 between multiplayer and single player experiences. I could break my own record(s) on my own copy of the game, but I’m not comparing anything directly to anyone else in the same way D3 leaderboards are doing it. Even though I’m functionally still playing solo self found, it’s got that “community” aspect behind it. The LB’s are online and persistent.

Very different from “hey, I broke my personal best on this Mario RPG any% speedrun.”

Yes, but at least they understand the quality and design goals in making one. I fiercely criticized Diablo 3, years ago but now my complaints about it is minimal at best. Because developers didn’t frown with the audience when they sounded their dismay but worked on the game non-stop to make it better. Not every developer does that nowadays.

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Oh my he’s actually completed act 1 with the xxxxxxxxx gear we could get him … nerf him again QUICK!

If you look at Season 1, it took Asia over 10 hours for the first person to hit 70, EU over 6 hours, and Americas under 3 hours. On Hardcore, it was over 10 hours. This is to be expected though, as when people are leveling up on day one, they’re learning new things from players before them. “Oh, someone found a new trick on EU? Let’s try it out!” Of course, a player on Asia, which was released hours earlier, would not have known.

But in terms of D3, under an hour leveling wasn’t really a thing until Season 20. Not that it couldn’t be done earlier than Season 20, but the major streamers weren’t promoting it. With my first attempt at speed leveling, I believe in Season 14, our group hit 70 in barely under 2 hours on Americas, and there were only 8 people ahead of us. And I was the only Necromancer on the leaderboard for over 90 minutes with my GR1 clear.

And while D4 has gotten better, it’s still not good enough. You’ll get some people who don’t want it faster, but they’re in the minority. The thing here is, Diablo 4 actually tried going back to its roots with the journey being the destination, but it seems they found out, this type of gameplay just doesn’t work with the general public anymore. And expect to see Diablo 4s leveling get faster and faster, as its overall a negative towards the game.

Here though, a lot of people are competitive. They don’t play the game for themselves; they play to compete against others. This is why there is a season start community. The first weekend is heavily pushed, and then the game becomes emptier. In fact, with something like Diablo 4, it would make more sense to play later, as the early days are filled with awful lag. If not for the competition, they could play anytime, but they don’t.

And that’s one area where Diablo 3 shines compared to the other games. It has a grind for people who like that. And it has speed races for people who like that. And it allows competition for people who like that. No other Diablo has all of that. Nor is this something I see getting added into Diablo 4.

I view a lot of this as happy accidents with Diablo 3 rather than purposeful design choices, and I’m unsure of if they actually have the designers capable of purposely creating such a game like that.

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Don’t see a D3 remaster come any time soon. I’d think D3 will have to be ded a bit more, and more imporantly, D4 has to go through all of its expansion and start to fade a bit after that. So I’d guess somewhere 5-10 year for D3 remastered, if at all. But all we can do here are wild guessed ofc. I’d be happy with something earlier.

As for viability, I’d think the prevalence of remastered games across lots of genres these days says that they are positive RoI. Even if they don’t sell as many copies compared as new releases, I’d think development cost is also way lower, so still good investment. And none of the devs care the slightest about promise this, deliver that. Ppl on forums will always complain, just look at RoI.

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First off…

As a [non-game] developer, I take issue with this. The devs do care about the games they make! It’s the people above them who make the business decisions who inevitably cull features. I’ve been playing RDR2 recently and it’s missing so much in the end-game: developers had big plans for a tonne of content but that got shot down in the name of rushing it to market.

Every job I’ve been in, the development core up to quite a high level all want to make the absolute best product they can (with a few lazy exceptions) but they’re time-pressured into getting it out the door.

Look at how Diablo has developed for the last 20 years. Release ASAP… think about making it playable some time around the first x-pac… albeit sometimes the game mechanisms do need player feedback for companies to realise they need something better.

Yes! But I do think D2R was more of a filler before D4 rather than a post-D3 thing. If we see D3R, it might be more of a tactical release to build nostalgia before the release of D5. At the rate they’re releasing and I’m ageing, I don’t think I’m going to be around to see either. :laughing:

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D2?!!
Unless you factor in the bots which Blizzard has been ignoring for the past year who have destroyed at least 2 of those 3 aspects.

That’s called “confirmation bias”. I work in a company with a LOT of developers and I think 1, maybe 2 care about what they’re developing. The rest will tell you “lol no” or “not really” if you ask them if they care. They’re just here because it pays well.

That’s a whole separate problem than the devs caring.

That makes sense for newer companies but Diablo has been around since 1996. They’ve had 28 years of player feedback to make the mistakes they have made.

That was my thought… more towards the 10 year mark. They’ll probably consider it once they’ve milked all the naive people out of their money from MTX in D4.

Aren’t you also engaging in confirmation bias though? Like, all either of you really have are empirical observations from your personal life circumstances. I don’t think that’s cause to dismiss his claim on general grounds.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Well… i learned today there is a new act so that’s worth a check i suppose… i really don’t want to try SB at this point when i do start the game again from where i left off. Just honestly hope i have better gear drops rather than :poop: :poop: :poop: ohhhhh… actually no! :poop:

Yes I am, that’s the point. Can just call it what it is or give an opposing example of the same thing.

For one thing I have Mr Tedious on my ignore list so thank you for bringing more of his “insights” to my attention :laughing:

The thing I take issue with is you comparing his “a company” sample with my fairly extensive experience in software across multiple industries! I’d say what he’s doing isn’t really confirmation bias. It’s simply being contrarian supported by bad stats and little inside knowledge of industries.

He has tried to dismiss me on general grounds multiple times and usually fails quite badly. For some reason he keeps responding to my messages even though I haven’t for quite some time. Poor bugger must be desperate for attention. Does he still mumble on endlessly about moderation? :laughing:

~~
Anyway, sure there are guys in every industry who are just there to take home the pay cheques but my point about the accountants/marketers/project managers overruling/pushing/beheading developers/engineers is standard across many industries. Tech firm engineers are usually pushed to get their product out for trade shows. [Game] developers the same. Though E3 doesn’t seem to be the showcase event it used to be.

Imagine Blizzard not quite getting something ready for Blizzcon and they had to wait another year… Do you not have phonesProject Managers?

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Yes, most devs care about making (what they think is) a good game, or in general product, I agree. I meant that gaming devs don’t care about what has been promised to the public, or whether forum ppl perceive that those promises have been deliver on. And that higher ups certainly don’t care about 10 forumers doing their usual whinge if the game yields a positive RoI from millions of sold copies. The context I was going for was “people posted negative comments on the forum, so the game wasn’t a success”, but probably wasn’t clear.

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You and I both know you don’t. This is shown by the other day when I asked you a very friendly, straight forward question and you replied directly to me with an insult, then deleted your post 5 seconds later.

Again, it’s still confirmation bias. It isn’t “that way” because you said so. If I claim that I have even more extensive experience across even more industries, does that make what you said bias and mine not? Of course not.

To be a contrarian in that case, one would have simply said to you “nope” or simply “devs do not care”. However, I stated that it was confirmation bias, which is not contrarian. Also, what bad stats? What evidence do you have of “little inside knowledge”?

If that’s how you want to rationalize me trying to engage in friendly discussion with you and you felt it was more important to sling mud and avoid the questions.

Wasn’t more than a week ago that you made the aforementioned response.

You clearly have some kind of unresolved animosity towards me for what appears to us as no reason. You don’t seem like an unintelligent person. Would you like to discuss it, get it out and perhaps behind us so that we can discuss this game amicably? I hope you chose to and not to maintain the facade that you’ve placed me on your ignore list. If I’ve said something to offend you, I’d be happy to discuss and if I made a mistake, I’ll admit it.

I apologize, I missed this.

I think they understand the design goals, absolutely. But the quality? I think their definition of quality differs from most of ours. Quality is giving the customer what they expect or to exceed that expectation. They’ve given their customers things they didn’t want, and ended up not liking, probably thinking they were giving them something that exceeded their expectations.

Blizzard has, in several cases, eventually given customers what they want. However, it seems like pulling teeth at times. The most successful games ask customers what they want instead of telling them what they want. This is the mistake Blizzard has made more times than not.

I think it’s due to the method they follow for collecting feedback, metrics and harvest of statistics. It is all so mechanical so to speak and questions are generalized for public use; simple polls and some metrics sometimes fail to catch all the details or direction that fans actually want. In the end, it turns to a guessing game or trial and error for the developer to interpret the voice of the masses then finally come up with a solution.

Remember years ago, when some fans sounded their wish for playing Classic WoW, but Allen Brack, the former president of Blizzard at that time, talked down to them? Why he did this? He just knew that World of Warcraft got to the point it is today, by the fan feedback. Players have shaped it as it is today by filling up mass amount of polls, gave feedback and now a few fans ask to get back to “the roots”? If I were Brack himself, I’d call this unimaginable as well, and could have the very same kneejerk reaction to question it at the first glance. Not saying former president was perfect or something, but giving you a look to his thought process on this blunder.

To summarize; they actually ask people what they want, but those kind of polls usually sent to players who spend most of their time with Blizzard products. They do this to be objective, because who else would be eligible to give feedback but someone who spent time with the game for more hours than well above average?
Alas, they’re still bound by other limitations such as minding the sustainability of systems (ie. online DRM, algorithms and loops), or interpreting the answers to widely generalized questions in their polls to find a solution to an almost non-existent problem, personally. Hence, the quality they thrived years ago might not be there.

This doesn’t apply to Blizzard only, though. Many other companies fell in the same category of “their quality isn’t so good anymore” once they’re in the big league. There’s always going to be a slight miscommunication between large companies and their customers; the important part, for me at least, that they keep trying.

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Thank you for that. Believe me, I give Blizzard credit where it’s due.

I’m part of the side that notices that they release poor quality or things nobody wants/likes… then it takes a ton of mass complaints to make change. Sure, other companies have done this but if you talk about this practice to large game groups, Blizzard are one of the, if not THE first to get brought up.

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Q: When is a joke not a joke?
A: When it’s offense.

To wit, the meme stops being funny after it continues to be true for a prolonged period of time. Bugthesda used to be a silly or sardonic “only half-joking” type of insult to leverage against Bethesda, circa 20 years ago. Nowadays, you could tell me they trademarked the name and are selling it on NFT’s and I’d totally believe you. “Madden Roster Update ##” used to be a meme, now it’s ubiquitous and not just for sports titles; you now also have CoD Annual Update, Pokemon Annual Update, Diablo 4 Annual Update, I could go on for days as we all are painfully aware.

What I fault Blizzard for the most, what made me the most upset with them, was the BG3 critique. I’m sorry, but we absolutely SHOULD expect that kind of game from a AAA company. Every single time, every single title. We absolutely should! We really, really should. It costs many paper faces across many moons to make it happen, but AAA companies are the ONE group that HAVE those faces AND that time. They ARE the ones who absolutely should make it happen, every time. And we should demand that of them.

Every single time.

You do have a valid point there. And for what it’s worth, they obviously haven’t lost me as a customer despite my harsh rhetoric above. I do think the iterative process has worked for them so far for the past 20 years. My complaint here is primarily that they’re such complete and total :eggplant: s about it though. Literally the example you gave, did he HAVE to say it like that? Maybe he thought it was edgy, maybe he didn’t care either way, maybe he DID want to be condescending, maybe it’s Maybelieve, maybe anything. The bottom line, though? He said what he said, and it made him sound like a total jerk.

Listen Brack, you think you know how to PR, but you don’t.

They have a good formula for improvement. I would have rated launch D4 through S2 D4 as a 6/10 if a first-time title from a no-name company, but as a BLIZZARD offering from an ESTABLISHED franchise, I would be WAY harsher, and WAS way harsher. 2/10 if that. But now, a year later? 8 out of 10. I’m having a LOT of fun with it. WAY more fun than I ever thought I’d have. a TON of fun. I like playing it, now!

That’s the power of their iterative process at work, but G-F-DANGIT if they don’t just constantly shoot themselves in the foot with their launches! They could have started at 10 out of 10 because they had decades of knowledge on what Diablo players, new and old, really want. THEN you iterate from THERE and you wind up with excellence.

Instead, Mediocrates over here being all like “don’t you guys have phones?”

SMH

EDIT: Not that I blame the guy who actually literally said that. He was thrown STRAIGHT under the bus and I have a lot of sympathy for him. I’m really just using that now infamous phrase to encapsulate the upper management that forced him to be there in that situation. That isn’t the look of a company that “hears the players.” That’s the look of a company that was phoning it in, hence their concerns for whether we could get their morning-after texts.

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Wow, well said.

Said with such fire!

When I do a hot take, I make it a HOT take. Go big or go home style. :fire:

That being said, I do want to spin this into a more positive direction now that I’ve vented the steam. As stated, they’ve made mistakes and those mistakes are very public. And I do NOT want them to get away with those mistakes. I can forgive, but I will NOT forget. And nobody else should either.

It’s the passionate ardent fan that Blizz should court. I’m the one who spends the cash and retains the metrics, right? That means I like what you’ve got there, Big Daddy Blizz, but I’m gonna HOLD you accountable when you mess up. I don’t just want you, I want you better. I know you can be better, YOU know you can be better, so just BE better!

You BETTER be better, or I’ll run out of appropriate alliterations.

Anyway. Blizz has room to improve, and it is my genuine and sincere hope that they do. And I think they will, as long as we the players continue to keep them honest.

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