Both. People are clearing a GR150 @ p3000 in just under 15 mins. Some builds are 15 GRs weaker. Well, most are. If not 20 GRs weaker.
I one keyed a LQ 130 with a strange build ive never tried before lol
Lets stay away from nerfing that thou ;
A lot of that is that Soul Shards are worth about 10 GRs worth of damage. And some more of it is just that, being the best build, Inna’s gets played a lot, so the numbers appear further inflated.
I’m not saying the build shouldn’t be nerfed. What I’m saying is that for it to be competetive with top builds for other classes (Rend for Barbs, Marauder for DH, Twister and Firebird for Wiz, etc) it needs roughly a 4 GR nerf.
Nerfing this one build into the ground won’t do anything to solve the issues with the many, many underpowered builds in this game.
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Whatever they do I hope it is to the sets and not the accessories. Remember that set items change with nerfs where the boots and the bracers will not. Nothing more annoying than getting a great ancient or primal with augs and then they change it and its a cube item off season. Sorry, too powerful. I am sure you wont mind farming that again. >.<
I do see your point, but I don’t think it’s really valid imho. I mean, we could have 1 player playing DH (Wudi) and he’d cleared high. Would you judge that clear based on his performance? Many builds are struggling to hit GR130, even with the shards.
I’d never thought of how many GR advantage the shards give, but 10 GRs sounds about right. I was hitting GR119 with s6 impale @ p1300 pre impale buff and shards for s25. So a buff of 5 GR for the impale buff and 10 for the shards sounds about right.
Well, it depends. If we’re looking at “top clears for various builds,” then of course that clear would be relevant. If we’re trying to determine some sort of average, though, then one data point isn’t that useful.
But: it’s really hard to ever determine averages like that in this game, since there are so many factors that muddy the waters -paragon differences, rng/fishing reliance of a build, amount of play, etc.
I think Blizz tries to use an average of that sort in balancing, which is probably why they have so many problems with doing it properly! In reality, the only good way to balance clearly is to look at the uppermost outliers, i.e. the top clears, adjusted up or down for paragon. And if you then want to adjust for “average”, you just need to factor in or out a few additional concerns, like difficulty of play, and rng/fishing reliance.
I’ve written quite extensively about all of that, here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here.
Again: how would nerfing this one build, far more than is warranted, help those other builds? They definitely wouldn’t be any stronger in absolute terms, and they would barely, if at all, be stronger even in relative terms. After all, there would still be A LOT of builds that are much better than that.
And, at the end of the day, there are a lot of “gut-check” estimations of build power flying around, and these sorts of things almost always turn out to be completely wrong. I compiled my pretty extensive look at solo class power over time partially in response to one commenter who was convinced that Blizz “always favored Monks over Wizards!!!” which is of course not just wrong, but incredibly, laughably, farcially wrong.
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Since a number of people have commented, here and in other threads, on how Monk has not just one but two of the top pushing builds, I took a look at LOD WOL to see how it compares.
The best clear with that build, by a fair margin, is Cross’s 150 in 9:55, with 10670 paragon. That extra time (5:05) is worth +2.63 extra GRs, by our simple napkin-math estimate of a 1.17x time multiplier per tier. If we scale down to 5k paragon, this would be a loss of -3.78 GRs worth of damage via mainstat, so that would be GR 148.85 at 5000p.
150 should theoretically be possible as low as around 6000p, though at high paragon, some players (including Cross) drop Unity for SoJ, a swap that may result in death without the toughness added by 3-5k worth of extra paragon. It should be noted that the lowest paragon to actually clear 150 with this build is 9880 (Kikaha, who uses Unity).
That makes it probably comparably strong to LOD Twister Wizard, which has done 150 with as low as about 7k paragon (better than LOD WOL’s current mark), or in a time around 12:50, with 10k paragon (worse than LOD WOL’s current mark). Maybe similar, too, to Marauder DH, which has done 150 with as little as 8.5k paragon. After an Inna nerf, these 3 builds will likely be the strongest in the game.
LOD WOL is a bit stronger still than Rend Barb, LOD HOTA Barb, Arachyr WD, Bomb Crusader, Firebird Wiz, or LOD Corpse Explosion Necro, all of which appear to really need about 10k paragon to break that 150 mark. These builds (and I may be missing a few others) would likely form the second-strongest tier of builds, post Inna nerf.
Anyway, here’s a simple way to look at Inna vs LOD WOL: Inna has for sure done 150 at around 5k paragon, but not much lower than that. And LOD WOL has for sure done 150 at around 10k paragon, but not much lower than that. The paragon difference between those two marks is worth about 3.4 GRs worth of damage. So, with a -4 GR nerf to Inna, that build would almost certainly be no stronger than LOD WOL, and most likely a little weaker.
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Id like WOL to be a few GRs higher than Inna. Harder to gear for & all that jazz.
Hmm, well, based on that logic, do you want the best build for every class to be a LOD build?
Things are already sort of headed that way. Top builds for Necro and Wiz are LOD, and heck, possibly even for Barbs too, though that remains to be seen. And if Inna gets nerfed moderately - hard (which is very likely) for Monks too. That leaves just Crusader, DH, and WD for classes where the best build is definitely not a LOD build.
Honestly? To me, difficulty to gear should definitely be rewarded. LoD isn’t always the hardest. Any build that has a lot of skill % damage items is tough also. But yeah. I am in favor of rewarding hard work.
Since I was quoted on using Unity, I’ll have to say that with or without unity, the build is unkillable. It’s the tankiest build I’ve ever played. I used unity because I don’t really like SoJ all that much, and we’re looking at 15% elite + 20% fire vs 50% crit dmg or damage range and 50% DR. If you use unity, you can also technically drop stone gauntlets for magefists, and now it’s 15% elite dmg vs 50% crit dmg/dmg range.
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Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I guess that even without Unity, the setup used for that 9:55 would have had at least 2 billion toughness even at p5000, and at p10000 it would be more like at least 3.5 billion, which should be plenty.
In that case, 150 should definitely be possible around 6k paragon, since surviving isn’t a huge problem.
And, in which case, a -4 GR hit to Fire Inna would almost certainly leave it weaker than WOL.
You do understand balance, right?
HPS quiver is the hardest item in the game to get right. Hell, I’ve got 5-6 superb ancient bombardier’s and 9th ciri satchels that have dropped…for a single HPS. That is inferior to all of them. No other off hand requires 3 stats to roll (that I’m aware of) - the rest are at most 1 stat, most 2 stats.
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Haha, yeah, you said it brother!
How you been, man? What’s cookin?
Yah Rage do you understand balance?
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Writing, research, teaching. You know, anything other than Diablo.
Yah balance do you Rage understand?
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Blizzard will not nerf this build.
They will destroy it.
Just like they did with DH GoD build, and with Wiz Firebird.
History repeats.
And yet another bunch of people get disillusioned, and quit the game.
So Blizzard, please this time use a scalpel, not an axe.
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