Barbarians Unite Pls. Nice People spotted :)

[Roidraged-1214]

Clueso, I’m not sure where your gr125 is coming from, but 140 is the balance mark.
These are all the top clears across all regions

Sader-138
DH -139
Necro - 142
WD - 140
Barb - 140
Wizard - 144 - 141 post nerf? Who really knows with Vyrs…

If you are all for balance than you should be very happy with where barbs are at.
I’m quite sure that barb GR 140 was also cleared with the highest amount of paragon, meaning all of those other top clears are by people with less paragon.

The only class that needs some love is Monk and Sader needs a small boost.

At this stage in Diablo. A solo GR 140 is the epitome of balance.

@clueso-2790

So why not try to balance all or at least most builds

Actually, the proposal was intended to bring all of our builds up to like gr 138 I think? He did try, you just haven’t seen it yet I assume.

On a side note. Where is all of this fairness and balance hippie mumbo jumbo coming from? If no class balance changed in the patch notes and the only thing they announced was the theme, nobody would be on the ptr advocating for wizard nerf.

Admit it, you don’t want to see barbs have fun. If you weren’t advocating for wiz nerfs, than you don’t get to advocate for barb nerfs.

Also, even if you weren’t advocating for wiz nerfs, you still don’t get to advocate for barb nerfs lol.

I’m a barb, my muscles are bigger than yours. Thus, I am right and you are wrong.

[Meteorblade-2266]

@MicroRNA-1507

I was thinking TableGuy. How many characters are we allowed again?

I think hero names can have a maximum of 11 characters in them.
So, you could definitely get ImFunPolice, NerfTheBarb or CryOnForums.

[Gasnick-2400]

@clueso-2790

So why not try to balance all or at least most builds around for example GR125?

So you want to nerf OP builds, so most builds can ONLY clear a GR125 in late 2019?

http://replygif.net/i/1008.gif

Seriously what’s with all the fear that most classes could do GR140 solo as easy as doing a 130GR, even if each class had only 2 sets capable of achieving it and one LoD build per class…

I prefer to have ALL classes balanced arround 135-140 GR than be stuck at 120-125 GR for years, just because some people can’t stand the fact that “the most dedicated players” with over 8000-10000 paragon (which is like 1%-5% of the playerbase) could clear a 150 GR solo…

[D3excess-1904]

Leave barb as is. Leave season buff as is. Leave the fire explosion as is. That will be fun to see everyone find a hidding spot,rock, tree, wall. If its op so what its only for a season.

[Hadd-1524]

@Free-1746

It would be easier to LEAVE IT ALONE AND BE QUIET.

For God’s sake, LET PEOPLE HAVE THEIR DANG FUN!

WHY ARE YOU THE FUN POLICE? BE QUIET. GO SIT AND BE QUIET. IT IS SHUSH TIME FOR YOU.

PEOPLE ARE HAVING FUN AND YOU ARE CRAPPING ON IT IN THE NAME OF “BALANCE.”

THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON FOR YOU TO CARE. PEOPLE ARE FINALLY HAVING FUN AFTER YEARS OF THEIR FAVORITE CLASS BEING TRASH AND YOU ARE ACTING LIKE THE FUN POLICE: “HOLD UP THERE, CANT LET YOU HAVE ALL THAT FUN, GONNA NEED TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU.”

JUST SHUSH AND GO SIT!

Free, it was about time for you to TALK LIKE THAT. I almost broke my phone giving you my like

[clueso-2790]

@spacecadet13-6198

Hmm, haven’t seen too many Wizards and Necro’s suffering and not enjoying themselves because their OP’ness came at the expense of ‘balance’. Why has it been OK for them, but if there’s the slightest possibility that Barb’s could be OP, then its " OMG please nerf we must have balance in the meta"?

It is not okay.

@Roidraged-1214

Clueso, I’m not sure where your gr125 is coming from, but 140 is the balance mark.

It was kind of a whatever-number. It could have been anything else. The number was just there to illustrate the point.

@Roidraged-1214

Admit it, you don’t want to see barbs have fun. If you weren’t advocating for wiz nerfs, than you don’t get to advocate for barb nerfs.

I am advocating for balance, which means nerfing OP things and buffing underpowered things and this is being done in order for more builds feeling stasfying to play (in regards of the rewards of XP, gems, etc, you are getting as well as being able to participate in higher level group play), so your assumption that I do this because I “do not want Barbs to have fun”, is wrong.

@Roidraged-1214

Actually, the proposal was intended to bring all of our builds up to like gr 138 I think? He did try, you just haven’t seen it yet I assume.

I read Free’s proposal and for the most part I liked it a lot (aside from some minor and medium large issues that I had on which I also gave feedback). Do you know the saying (and I am paraphrasing here) that some people who are ones harshest critics can also be ones strongest advocates, because they want them to succeed.?! That is basically what I am trying to do here.

Furthermore, what I wrote in this thread was not directly in favor of actually nerfing Barbs, but rather directed at the underlying premise/idea/axiom that people who want nerfs are not wanting to have people to have fun, because (ironically) it is quite the opposite, since the more builds are balanced, the builds there are to have fun with, and in order to achieve that, nerfs are sometimes necessary.

@Gasnick-2400

So you want to nerf OP builds, so most builds can ONLY clear a GR125 in late 2019?

I said “for example”. The number was just there to illustrate my point an it could have been any other number.

[Hadd-1524]

@clueso-2790

I am advocating for balance,

No, you are not. You are a troll or just plain stupid (or both).

[AGenius-2872]

I really hope barb keeps the love next season,

I stopped playing barb many seasons ago due to the lack of power and progress.

It wasn’t until I played PTR briefly and tried out the new changes I decided to have a go at barb again last week in S18. obviously I cant use rend in the same way but using captains set I enjoyed playing low level GR’s and T15 rifts

However , I have gone back to DH until new season!

[DieHarder-11668]

I see why he/she calls himself, Clueso.

[Demonmonger-1509]

@spacecadet13-6198

Hmm, haven’t seen too many Wizards and Necro’s suffering and not enjoying themselves because their OP’ness came at the expense of ‘balance’. Why has it been OK for them, but if there’s the slightest possibility that Barb’s could be OP, then its " OMG please nerf we must have balance in the meta"?

But every other class IS suffering, that is Clueso’s point.

@Roidraged-1214

Sader-138
DH -139
Necro - 142
WD - 140
Barb - 140
Wizard - 144 - 141 post nerf? Who really knows with Vyrs…

There is clearly room to grow with this, as presented, it is typically just one build for each class that can get this high. Would really be nice if every set/build was within 2-3 GR levels of the class specific top class build, and then every class was within 3-4 GR’s of eachother with their top clear.

This is obviously hard to pull off, but right now it does not even look like they are trying or even care…which is the bigger elephant in the room.

What this data is showing me, is that class to class balance of the top build is actually in a very solid place (outside of the monk who was the lowest I believe)!!! THIS IS A MASSIVE FREAKING WIN!!! But when you dive into each class set, we still have some major issues within the classes themselves.

[Gasnick-2400]

@clueso-2790

I said “for example”. The number was just there to illustrate my point an it could have been any other number.

Yet you chose GR125 instead of for example 135 or 140 which means that just like other balance obsessed players, you don’t want anyone to ever solo a GR150 even if it’s it would the 1-5% of playerbase…

What you and other nerf circle of mutual addoration representatives don’t get is that even if a player with over 8000 or 10000 paragon could solo a GR150 it doesn’t mean everyone else will too…

Some people like me for example enjoy playing SOLO. I know it’s hard to believe, but people like me exist in this game and we don’t want to worry about having any of our favourite builds being nerfed, cause some players don’t like that best players in the game can solo GR140-145 or even a 150 GR…

If players with even over 6000 paragon could clear GR145-150 that doesn’t mean that everyone else can too…

Most players will be lucky to clear maybe 115-125 GR in season while most dedicated players who spend countless of hours (over 6-8 hours a day) playing the game could probably solo 130-140 GR max…

Nerfing any builds lowers the max range of clearing GRs for average players by maybe 5-10 GRs in some cases more, so instead of clearing max 115-125 GRs in season they will be lucky to clear a GR 105-115 or less…

So tell me do you wanna be the guy, who’s the reason that the majority of players have to suffer, because you can’t stand the fact (once again) that a different than Wizard or Necromancer class can reign as the new strongest DPS build in game for a change?

I honestly prefer to have a choice in META groups for the Damage dealing class, whether it’s a Wizard, Necro, DH, Monk, WD, Crusader or a Barb…

@Demonmonger-1509

But every other class IS suffering, that is Clueso’s point.

So ask for other classes to get buffs like Barbs did too, don’t look for excuses just to nerf barbs…

Organize a community buff thread to improve your favourite class. Work for others good not against them, just because your class was left out in the current patch…

[MicroRNA-1507]

I was thinking about “Clover” as a female barbarian name. I think it has humor in its irony and can be an allusion to George Orwell’s Animal Farm.

P.S. Do you think it is a massive win if barbs in patch 2.6.7 non-season clear 145 and not 140? Does it make more sense with the numbers presented that the top barb is in the 142/143 range?

[clueso-2790]

@Gasnick-2400

Some people like me for example enjoy playing SOLO . I know it’s hard to believe, but people like me exist in this game

I am a solo player ~97% of the time as well.

@Gasnick-2400

and we don’t want to worry about having any of our favourite builds being nerfed, cause some players don’t like that best players in the game can solo GR140-145 or even a 150 GR…

I have the opposite problem.
The vast, vast majority of builds that I like to play are significantly underperforming, and therefore, you could say (at least from your perspective and from your line of reasoning) that I and other people who like to play these builds are having a lot less fun.

@Gasnick-2400

cause some players don’t like that best players in the game can solo GR140-145 or even a 150 GR…

But wouldn’t you agree that even if you adjust/make up for the Paragon, that there are builds that are outliers? That is the point I am trying to make.

@Gasnick-2400

If players with even over 6000 paragon could clear GR145-150 that doesn’t mean that everyone else can too…

I agree, but again, that was not my point.

@Gasnick-2400

So tell me do you wanna be the guy, who’s the reason that the majority of players have to suffer, because you can’t stand the fact (once again) that a different than Wizard or Necromancer class can reign as the new strongest DPS build in game for a change?

I am not that guy, because I am the guy who wants Wizards and Necros nerfed, which would put a lot more builds in the place of “strongest DPS build in game” and not just the Wizard, Necro and Barbarian (which is the outcome you advocate for).

Now let me play devils advocate here: do you want to be the guy who just wants to have 3 “strongest DPS builds in game”, or a lot more? Do you want to be the guy who takes away the fun from everyone who does not want to play one of these few builds?

@Gasnick-2400

I honestly prefer to have a choice in META groups for the Damage dealing class, whether it’s a Wizard, Necro, DH, Monk, WD, Crusader or a Barb…

Yeah, me as well, but that can not just be achieved by buffing stuff (again), but also by nerfing things, and of course by a combination of these two.

@Gasnick-2400

So ask for other classes to get buffs like Barbs did too, don’t look for excuses just to nerf barbs…

Organize a community buff thread to improve your favourite class. Work for others good not against them, just because your class was left out in the current patch…

OR… we ask for the ~few overly strong builds to be nerfed, which also is a lot less effort to nerf a few builds, rather than to buff everything AGAIN to what the current highest powerlevel is. And then, in addition to nerfing the outlier builds, the under performing builds can and should be buffed.

The “Never Nerf, Always Buff” Mentality/Philosophy has lead to all this ridiculous and unnecessary power creep in the first place. I guess you could call the people who just want buffs “Buff Obsessed Players”…

[Demonmonger-1509]

haha

If a player with that much paragon could do 140 in that short of a time span, I think it is safe to presume that as is, they can clear 142-143, which is really not bad at all given the circumstances of the clear (high paragon, decent gear, high augments, etc…).

[clueso-2790]

@Demonmonger-1509

Just ignore Gasnick imo, he is usually one of the more toxic players that never reads a full post and tries to turn it into an argument rather than a fruitful discussion. He is that breed of player that shows clear bias like the Necromancers or Wizards when discussing their buffs etc…

I will give everyone a chance and come to my own conclusions about them, rather than just basing it on what others say about them.
But thanks.

[MicroRNA-1507]

The other thing that he noted is that he had a hellfire amulet on. He thinks equipping a flavor of time amulet would be 1-1.5 tiers higher. He also did not have a power pylon for the rift guardian. He claims that he had the wrong rune for one of his skills and he was using a non-ancient shoulder that as you know lacks augments. He think it is 143-144 +1/1.5 for FoT =144-146 total. I think his assessment is sound.

The data looking at greater riftclears at 131 or 126 clearly shows the power of the ww/rend build. So even if one makes the argument to ignore his clear/estimate, then the data from these other GR clears are compelling/informative.

[Gasnick-2400]

@Demonmonger-1509

Just ignore Gasnick imo, he is usually one of the more toxic players that never reads a full post and tries to turn it into an argument rather than a fruitful discussion. He is that breed of player that shows clear bias like the Necromancers or Wizards when discussing their buffs etc…

Says the guy who thinks nerfs fix anything… Sure buffs takes more time, but at least everyone benefits from them. If your class doesn’t get any buffs in current patch, than do your best so it will in next patch.

Why does is it even matter if ONE class is ahead of others by 2 or 5 GR…

Seriously I haven’t seen any threads asking for nerfs to necros or wizards before PTR, now suddenly barbs might have a chance to replace Wizards and everyone starts with their breaking balance or outlier argument.

Guess what no matter WHAT CLASS will be have the strongest DPS build in game there will ALWAYS be a class that is 2nd best or last, so your outlier argument is invalid.

WHY do you people have a problem that a different than Wizard or Necromancer class can suddenly be stronger whether it might be barb now or maybe monk, wd, dh or crusader in next patches?!

You act like little kids who can’t stand that Wizards or Necromancers might loose their position in META groups and you’re doing everything in your power to prevent it…

Nerfs might be an easier solution to balance, but always at some classes cost, while buffs on the other hand might take some time, but if done right everyone benfits from them…

[Free-1746]

@clueso-2790

I am not that guy

Well, no, you are that guy.

@clueso-2790

I am the guy who wants Wizards and Necros nerfed

As illustrated here.

@clueso-2790

which would put a lot more builds in the place of “ strongest DPS build in game ” and not just the Wizard, Necro and Barbarian (which is the outcome you advocate for).

No. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of Gasnick’s, and my, and the Barb community’s position.

We do not–and have never thought–that only certain builds and classes should be among the strongest. But we admit that is reality.

The 140 cat is out of the bag. Several classes are capable of 140+ or very close to it. From Diablo Progress for Season 18/non-Season:

Wizard 143/144
Barb 130/133
DH 131/139
Monk 129/134
WD 136/140
Crus 135/138
Necro 140/142

Do you see, my kittens? 140 is the new bar by which successful class clears are evaluated. Vyrs and Necro might have broken the pinata, but non-Season DHs, WDs, and Crusaders have all been gobbling candy–or very close.

If you’re thinking ahead to Season 19, well, don’t. The Season buff in PTR was ludicrously strong, and any and all Seasonal PTR clears should be ignored. If there’s anything that needs a nerf, it’s the S19 Kill Streak bonuses.

My point is that 140 is the new norm and Barbs can finally join that party. My point is also that there is never going to be perfect “balance” in a game, and that “balance” is not predicated upon numbers alone. In other words, “balance” is not necessarily a state in which all classes are within 1-3 GRs of one another–and it never can be–because different builds will always perform better or worse depending on GR conditions.

If you’re waiting for the day when all builds across all classes are relatively equal–if that’s your idea of “balance”–FORGET IT. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

It’s not an inherently bad goal, but it’s not remotely realistic given the time and resources available to the Classic Games Team that is currently updating D3.

Barbs are lucky that 1 spec that doesn’t rely on wall-charging can hit 140. Would it be nice to buff all the others to get in that range? OF COURSE!

Is that ever going to happen?

NO!

Does that mean you should advocate for “balance” if it means bringing classes down to some outdated 135 range?

HELL FRIGGIN’ NO!

KNOCK IT OFF. STOP ASKING FOR NERFS.

What should you ask for?

• No Nerfs!
• Buff new Monk & Crusader sets through the roof!
• Buff other Barb items!

In a game where statistical GR numbers increases go from tier 1 to 150, there is nothing but powercreep. If you don’t like it, you’re playing the wrong game.

[GhostDragon-190226]

@MicroRNA-1507

The other thing that he noted is that he had a hellfire amulet on. He thinks equipping a flavor of time amulet would be 1-1.5 tiers higher. He also did not have a power pylon for the rift guardian. He claims that he had the wrong rune for one of his skills and he was using a non-ancient shoulder that as you know lacks augments. He think it is 143-144 +1/1.5 for FoT =144-146 total. I think his assessment is sound.

The data looking at greater riftclears at 131 or 126 clearly shows the power of the ww/rend build. So even if one makes the argument to ignore his clear/estimate, then the data from these other GR clears are compelling/informative.

You are being selective in the information you are choosing and obfuscating things.

FoT might get him another level (or more) it’s a lottery ticket and entirely luck dependent on what order pylon’s spawn and what is around. It isn’t a guarantee of anything.

Rune choice isn’t going to be that drastic either given he cleared it. Had it been that wrong he would have failed, again it will be a minor difference.

Missing one augment? And How close does that get him to a 17% increase in damage to clear 1 GR higher? Answer: it doesn’t at that level.

And the biggest omission of all; it was a GG rift and mobs right at the start. He tried to downplay that on the stream but it was B.S. I personally would have had issue with those affixes, but with his toughness no. As others have stated wormhole was really the worst one for him.

You refuse to see an outlier for what it is.

[Meteorblade-2266]

@MicroRNA-1507

he was using a non-ancient shoulder that as you know lacks augments

He had over 10500 paragon.
So, that’s (10500-800) * 5 STR from paragon points = 48,500 STR
I presume he has rank 150 Caldesann’s on his 12 non-ancient gear pieces so that’s worth (750 * 12) = 9,000 STR
That’s a total of 57,500 STR.
Add in some STR from the items themselves and let’s say it’s 60,000 STR.

Okay, so that missing augment is 750 STR.
That would be 60,750 STR instead of 60,000 STR.
That would be a 1.25% increase in STR.
Each GR rank needs 17% more damage than the previous rank.
The lack of a shoulder augment is pretty much irrelevant.