Lets not exaggerate. You looked at era 11 balance. Wizards were clearly outliers in your analysis. You claimed that 5 classes were well-balanced.
You nerf wizards a bit. (Demon Hunters if you insist that they are an outlier that I disagree with) and you bring other classes up a bit. We are done. All classes have similar power. No one feels the need to complain about an OP class.
We are not talking about nerfing wizards 19 GRS (137.7-19=128.7*) vs. buffng barbs by 15 GRs (126.7+15=141.7). This would make it even more imbalanced than what the barb buff proposal claimed was an issue that needed the dire attention of the developers.
The barb buff proposal claimed that barbs needed 4.1 greater rifts to be balanced. If they get more power great. #1 is great. I just argue that #1 by a lot is not a good idea.
These numbers were based on Free/Rage’s babr buff proposal. The numbers are out of date but there seem to be in the right ballpark relative to the current situation.
P.S. This is NOT my table. It was the table that Free/Rage used to illustrate their point, because tables have value to summarize data.
Yeah, this argument is so dumb that it is not even fun. I love how some guys are using this “uhhh I care about balance” argument while balance according to them is achieved when 2 classes are top dps for past 2 years and thus, this balance must be protected.
I didn’t really play almost 2 years. I didn’t login for like a year. But from what I’ve read meanwhile, nothing have really changed. It is perfectly fine for Wiz and Necro to dominate all that time, because game is balanced that way. God forbid this balance changes and there are other classes that can actually get to same GR levels, this ruins the superiority of couple classes.
Let all classes get to 150 solo on couple builds. Game should have an end. Biggest mistake ever done in D3 was the lack of that end, and now people don’t know what to do with them self’s when they see that this end will be reached, sooner than later.
I will not be comparing D3 to “that other game” but the reason why I personally love to play it is simple. Game have simple landmarks (red maps/shaper dps/Uber elder) and all you need to do is reach them. Any build. Any skill. Any class. Any Archetype. Sure, gg endgame char will do a map in 1:45 and UE in sub 2 min, but this does not mean that you cannot have your own build achieve same goalposts with less efficient times.
Why D3 couldn’t have that plateau for so long is beyond me. Devs should never have listen to “gimme infinite progression game” requests, because this infinite progression is +5 mainstat that is meaningless.
Yeah man, their righteous claim “nerf is ok for balance” can be a wild dog coming back at them for a large bite. I am also playing that game with no name, not playing d3 for a while. Also more regularly playing warframe now.
I called for a nerf to wizards in GD and in the patch 2.6.6 PTR feedback forum.I am glad that it is happening. This is not about me “protecting” wizards. Also, I am okay with the nerf to necromancers. I play necromancers but I understand why it is happening. If you look at the 2 nerfs that are happening this patch, there is not a “huge” outrage coming from either wizards or necromancers. Certainly, there are people who are disappointed but so be it.
The argument is not about whether barbs can be #1 solo. The question is does it makes sense for barbs to be #1 and OP.
Okay, so it seems the Blizzcon stream does not start now, but rather in 1 and a 1/2 hours, so I still ahve some time to respond to you all.
We are talking here about numbers on items, not about game modes. In D2, they didn’t tend to buff items over and over again to such ridiculous amounts like it is happening in D3.
Yes, there were the 1.10 runewords of which some were too OP which made a lot of unique items useless. What I would have done in that case would have been to nerf some of the RW’s and buff some of the uniques.
The difference here is that it was never intended for players to reach the GR cap (which is 150). GR’s were the devs attempt for implementing the idea of an “Infinite Dungeon” that gets increasingly difficult until the player would reach a plateau, a soft cap so to speak.
There is a difference between Paragon and gear. We are talking specifically in the context of gear here.
I actually made a few threads and posts about this issue in the old forum and also a few posts in this new one here.
I actually agree with you on this one.
imo higher difficulties should not just give enemies higher damage and more more life, but focus more on other ways to create more challenge for the player, for example by increasing enemies movement speed, giving them increased CC resistance, increasing monster density, spawning more elites, giving elites more and new affixes, letting things like Molten Explosion trigger sooner, giving enemies new attack and a better AI, etc
Things like enemies life and damage on the other hand should start to stagnate at a certain point, so the game does not become a boring grind where you fight a single elite for 10-20 minutes.
Then I would argue that it is more fun to have a lot of builds at a more or less close level of power (aka reasonable balance), even if it comes with nerfs, since it creates more viable builds, which from my perspective and from the perspective of many other people as well creates more fun, since more builds are viable.
And according to Roldraged, fun is subjective (and he is right with that), so you can’ prove me wrong.
Look, you “Always Buff, Never Nerf” guys and the people on the other side who desire balance are almost like The Unstoppable Force and The Immovable Object.
Powercreep is not a fundamental part or aspect of ARPG’s. Just to get back to the classic example of Diablo 2: D2 has not seen any significant changes in +10 years and people still play this game, although there has not been any powercreep. The same thing goes for all the Diablo 2 mods like Path of Diablo or Median XL.
Powercreep is not necessary to keep players playing the game or even to make a good game. You just need to make a good game and regularly provide new content and powercreep is not needed for that at all. It is ridiculous to thing that powercreep is new content. It is not.
There are seasons, in which players can start again and season are separated from each other. So clearing a GR130 in one season is not the same as clearing a GR120 in another season. In non-season it would be, but not in two different seasons. And 95% of the players play season.
I for one wouldn’t be against such large nerfs. If I could, I would do that in the blink of an eye without any hesitation (assuming it would lead to reasonable balance).
Yes, it would piss off some people for a while, but after that, there would be a lot more viable builds and that would be good for the overall health of the game in the long run.
He’s been told many times to not just look at the numbers, and pick them out of the context. Consider the builds and gameplay that got barbs those skewed average numbers. I guess somebody never listens to others. That’s what happens when some dude’s overly obsessed with numbers & datamining and have not actually played the class at a high level.
So lets think this through the top barb clear in the current era is 133 using as you call it gimmicky mechanics. In terms of greater rift efficiency, barbs are not the lowest in terms of efficiency or 2nd lowest for most greater rift levels that most players will reach.
In the new PTR, a barb within 24 hours cleared a greater rift 140 that is 7 greater rifts higher than the best clear in America/EU/Asia combined in non-season. This build does not use gimmicky mechanics. So I class with a top clear of GR 133 that falls within balance is now getting a huge buff. The question is the extent of the buff.
Excluding wizards, is there any other class than is equal to or more powerful than barbs in the next PTR if things go live as is?
And who are you, exactly, to even ask that question? Because some of us that still are trying to get thru that dense corrosion of minds have been advocating for barbs and buffs for YEARS. I ran highest upvoted threads on ptrs. There is several buffs that I have worked my behind for. The most comprehensive analysis of power class in this game was done by Prokahn, several times. Free, Proey, myself and few others have been the Ear off Class Forum for years, and here is the best part, we have thousands of hours of strictly barb play.
I will ask you again, who are you exactly to ask the question if it makes sense for barb to be good dps (because it will not be #1 anyways)? Because I think there is few guys here that would like to have (S)word with you, because for years they have been neglected to team cheerleaders or forced to abuse mechanics to get clears that were still 5+ levels below other classes.
I am a member of the forum. Forum posters are allowed to ask questions.
Did you inspect darkpatator gear yourself or did you look the comments that darkpatator made about the 140 clear? He did not have all his gear augmented as you claim because he used a non-ancient shoulder. He did not have FoT equipped, etc…
He discusses why this build will go several GR higher.
You’re so stuck to the “within 24 hours” for some reason. Did you play the PTR? There is a copy button that copies your entire account. Use some dam common sense.
Extent of the buff? Someone with 10.5k paragon, all 130+ augs, 150 gems, top tier map, conduit and power pylon did 140 with only 50 seconds left. MAYBE 141 can be done. That is the extent.
Excluding wizards? What even are your questions? Necro is close, DH is close, WD is close, and sader is close. I’ve shown you this multiple times.
Even if it was the case (Barb as #1 DPS) it makes perfect sense because we have been neglected for years and Barb deserves to be strong solo DPS Class.
Now, since your question was answered, can you please go away?
I have no problem with barbs #1 just the possible gap to #2. I have made this point clear.
Genuine question for you, Free, Roidraged, Prokahn, Gasnick, etc…:
If barbs are 3 GRs above the second best class in patch 2.6.7 live non-season version, would you endorse/support a nerf to bring them done a couple of rifts later?
Can you explain to me where his rationale is incorrect in your opinion?
The ironic thing is the #1 barb player in the current era in the America/EU/Asia regions and presumably a member of the barb community is calling for a nerf to bazooka wiz, a build he considers OP. I guess there is heterogeneity in opinions. He considers the ww/rend to be equally powerful to something that he think should be nerfed.
Going to take a break from this thread. Going to watch the opening ceremony and Mythic stage panels.
You said discuss. I saw those posts. A few one liners doesn’t constitute a discussion in my mind. Honestly, who’s to say he would’ve done higher with fot? Most people don’t have a well rolled fot. His hellfire was perfect + a 5th passive. He would be doing consistently lower damage with fot.
Fot would’ve saved him a few seconds with the conduit pylon. He grouped up elites and used the pylons to get them down. The rest of the time was spent grouping and searching. FOT wouldn’t have done much good when he’s just grouping and searching.
He thinks barb is on par with bazooka build. That’s what he claimed. That isn’t even remotely true.
He died on that 140 with grotesque and zombies. The rest of the time his health was fluctuating A LOT. The build doesn’t have the toughness to go higher and it doesn’t have room to sacrifice anything for toughness.
I can see 141, but not 142. He’ll just die a bunch.
Below his 140 clear was a 138 clear from a person over 9k paragon. He claimed 144 was possible. The difference between 138 and 144 is huge. That person should’ve cleared 138 so much faster, but they didn’t.
Other people would’ve done 140 if the build was 144 capable, but the didn’t. That’s the truth.
The problem with your assertion is how many of the big barb players pushed the PTR. Using worldwide leaderboards, I could only find 5 names in the top 40. The big barbs such as ulmaguest did not push. Morevoer, barbs were told on the forum not to push.
You’ve just prove that you hate barbs or just suck at playing with them and only use them as zDPS builds for META.
You have only 3 barbs two zDPS builds and one “DPS” Might of the Earth + Bul-Katos Oath swords set build with 634,529 Damage without a single legendary gem equipped…
Anyone can check it in D3Planner…
I would rather make sure that other classes that are behind by more than 3 GRs could be buffed to be either 3 GRs behind barb, almost equal to barb or even if possible 2 or 3 GR above, to keep at least 3 GR or max 5GRs difference between all classes, not 10 or 15…
Another post that makes no sense at all. Who are you to tell how anyone should play their game?
Just because Ulmaguest didn’t push doesn’t mean everyone else don’t…
Please tell me who said that barbs are only good for zDPS builds for META and aren’t allowed to push highier GRs, cause it looks like something you’ve just made up out of thin air…
EVERY class deserves to have 1 or 2 builds for pushing highiest GRs in game, not just Wizards, Necromancers…
Monks and Barbs and other classes should also have DPS builds capable of soloing 138-142 GRs or even to have a spot in META groups even if only with one META build per class with Damage dealing builds…
STOP telling what other than Wizards or Necromancers classes can do or are allowed and what not, cause you or no one else have the right to do it…
Barbs been used as support slaves for years it’s time for a change and honestly as a DH player I won’t mind if they’re 10 GRs ahead of me. I still won’t ask to nerf them I rather ask devs to buff other DH class sets like Natalya or Marauder sets and their supporting legendaries.
I would even ask for a bigger buff to Yang’s and DML, to be able to make a 100+ GR LoD build with Mutishot too…
I won’t ask for any nerfs, cause I suck at playing any other classes…
