I would say DH and Wiz are almost equally powerful or very close.
2 Likes
Simple summary is that wizards are overpowered. Monks are really bad.
Behavior of necromancer is peculiar due to thorns build.
3 Likes
As I noted previously, Iâm thankful for the work Prokhan has put into this analysis. The above quote caught my eye, and I want to comment on it.
When Rage and I put together the Barbarian Buff Proposal, we did a deeper analysis closer to what Prokhan has published here. We also came to similar conclusion with similar numbers. Why, then, are the numbers in our proposal lower than Proâs?
The simple answer is that we felt that asking for Barbs to get buffed to the level of Wizards was not realistic. There were several reasons for that, and I donât want to go into the specifics because I donât want to derail this thread, but the bottom line is that, in the end, we opted to use a global average of top 10 clears as the basis for cross-class buffs. This is, of course, the blue text on our website, and if youâve read it before, youâll note that those buffs are meant to be granted in addition to the buffs needed for intra-class parity (for which R6 HOTA was the strongest) between major builds.
For example, youâll note that we recommend only +2 GRs of buffs for WW to catch up to R6 HOTAâs 132 clear. But to get the build into cross-class parity with the average of all other classesâ top 10 clears, the build needs an additional +4 GRs, which results in our recommended +6.1 GR tiers buff.
Mind you: this would only get Barbs into parity with the average of all other classesâ top 10 non-Season GR clears. It wouldnât get Barbs to the level of Wizards (not even close), and it wouldnât get them into the range of top Necro clears.
Proâs assessment reveals the true disparity that several Seasons of Wizard buffs have brought to the game. Our proposal took a more conservative approach. Both agree on a central premise: Barbs need some major buffs and they need to come through supporting legendaries.
Itâs important to note that Pro is not asking for nerfs, a stance with which I am personally in agreement. I donât want to see Wizards nerfed. Instead, I want to see Barbsâand all other classesâbrought into parity (or, at the least, brought very, very close).
1 Like
Wiz and DH are almost equal. So when buffs are due devs must hold back for them.
1 Like
I anticipate some backlash from Demon Hunters who feel that theyâre class is underpoweredâArch was arguing with a few thick-headed individuals about that very thing just before the patch dropped. And I think that, plus your data, could lead us into a discussion about how we think about buffs.
Generally, when we say we want buffs, weâre talking, at least in some sense, about all of a classâs builds. What we tried to point out in the proposal, though, is that some builds are harder to buff than others. For example, if you jack up Skull Grasp, youâll make WW stronger, but you wonât fix the problems that hold back the current iteration of the buildânamely that Rend is broken and that front-loading all damage into WW makes the build weaker and more reliant on fishing than all our other builds. This was especially tricky when we tried to figure out how to buff IK HOTA without also buffing R6 HOTA. The only solution we could find was our idea for Remorseless, and while that does the trick, it doesnât also fix the problem that Raekor builds have with wall-charging.
Likewise, one could look at Crusaders and think theyâre plenty strong, but some Crusader builds are vastly weaker than others. I mention this because Proâs analysis conclusively determines what kind of buffs are needed, but it canât determine how they should be applied to a given class other than through supporting legendaries.
My point is that when discussing buffs, letâs all keep in mind that different builds and classes have different problems and needs.
3 Likes
Every class is weak in comparison to wizards. Every class has bugged builds (the equivalent of barb wall charging). No class has achieved balance across their builds. Barbs do not have a unique set of problems.
The graphs online paint a more complete story than simply the top 10/30 that I frequently seen utilized.
This analysis demonstrates that barb are efficiency wise middle of the pack up to grift 120. There ate not worst as some have claimed. A clear of 120 is really strong/top tier as long as you do not play wizards and a couple of other classes. Barbs were also balanced with most other classez according to Prokahn fior patch 2.6.1.
6 Likes
The only other class that shares our current problem is Monk. One of the main complaints weâve had is that our supporting legendaries are out of date in the current power curve. The analysis Rage and I did, and Prokhanâs present analysis, confirms this. In Patch 2.6.4, all class sets were buffed, but by that point, Barb was already behind. In Patch 2.6.5, Wizards, Witch Doctors, Demon Hunters, Crusaders, and Necromancers received buffs to supporting legendaries. In 2.6.6, none of the new items are end-game worthy for Barbs.
While the Barb community has always supported other classes asking for buffs, the simple fact is that Barb is the weakest class. Monks are in a similar position, but are still a bit stronger.
Yes and no.
Prokhanâs analysis is more comprehensive in the data offered, but arrives at the same conclusion ours did: Barbs need buffs. An analysis of top 10 clears and their averages is useful in determining several things, not the least of which is what even counts as a top 10 per class.
Again, not exactly. That power potential at every tier is obfuscated by two builds that exploit wall-charging. Those two builds also happen to our strongest builds at any Paragon. Iâm sure you can see the problem: due to wall-charging, our curve is artificially enhanced. Our class looks stronger thanks to an exploit.
Not even close.
Every class has achieved clears above 130. Barb has only cleared above 130 with builds that utilize wall-charging.
Iâm only criticizing your post to make it clear that great care must be taken when interpreting Proâs analysis. We Barbs are not mistaken.
2 Likes
As a Wizard, I would support removing the cancer that is reverse Archon. WAY too much time has gone into balancing Fazulaâs. If Archon stacks only increases Archon damage, that would be a significant step to balancing the Wizard. You would likely have to buff the Base damage of Archon abilities to compensate Vyr, which is fine, because Chantodoâs does about 96% of Vyr damage, and thatâs simply too high.
2 Likes
Hahahahahahaha!
Oh you were serious. Sorry for laughing.
1 Like
Wizard damage is 3 times stronger than Demon Hunter damage. DH is not in the meta.
1 Like
I think DH is more meta than you realize. While overshadowed by Thorns, I think DH RGK isnât that far away from Thorns, just needing a little help?
Most of your counterpounrs ignore things. Other classes have bugged builds that require unyieldy mechanics. So wall charging is now part of normal gameplay that barbs have been doing for years. You may want to try out other classes to see their bugs at top tier levels.
Morticks (a new supporting legendary) is now being used by 1/3 if barbs topping the era leaderboard.
Barbs are more efficient or similar efficiency as necromancers up to at least 120 grift efficienvy by Prokahn analysis. In Prokahn graphs the barb line is higher than others inducating their better efficiency.
Exccluding wizards and dh, clearing a 120 is darn good. Hence, barbs weakness is something that primarily affects the tippy top of the barb curve.
4 Likes
DarkKnight,
The more right the curve is the more efficient it is. It is not upwards. In that regard, Monk and Barb are sharing a similar faith whilst Necromancerâs power is very situational. That s why their curve is more spread from the lowest to the highest end. At some point (116), they surpass all other classesâ efficiency except Wizards. On the other hand, thanks to the lack of supporting legendaries of barbs and the classâs linear character and item design, they get stuck at about 120s at best while DH and Wizards can have options to push their curve to the highest performance levels.
Also we should consider the starting points of these grift clears:
Necromancer : +100
Barbarian: +105
Monk: +105
Witch Doctor: +107
Crusader: +110
Demon Hunter:+117
Wizard: +120
As one can see Demon Hunter and Wizard playersâ starting grift in the 1st 1000 leaderboards is significantly higher than the other classes.
A rebalancing is due to bring the low performing classes to higher levels.
Barbarians have deep rooted issues with their legendaries and passive skill and simply buffing set numbers will not be sufficient I guess.
1 Like
Just added this table for those who likes to make redundant tables as posts 
2 Likes
From this table, barbs are in the middle of the bottom 5 classes. Unfortunately, this does not take into Rashielâs well-justified concern about how many people play each class and how many of those competitively. If monks or barbs are played by 5x fewer players, we would expect their numbers to be lower. One can not conclude by looking at the bottom of the leaderboard relative power. The same is true by looking at the top.
4 Likes
Itâs clear to everybody is playing this game (except Developers) that Wizard is OP and breaks balance.
I really am upset about this fact: actually we neither canât lack a Wizard in Groups, nor avoid to play it if we want to play as Trash Killer.
5 Likes
This is so true about wizards. I know that some view the word ânerfâ as a 4 letter word 
, but it is easier to bring an extreme outlier back then buff 6 classes.
3 Likes
Weâre no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do I
A full commitmentâs what Iâm thinking of
You wouldnât get this from any other guy
I just wanna tell you how Iâm feeling
Gotta make you understand
Never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you
Weâve known each other for so long
Your heartâs been aching but youâre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whatâs been going on
We know the game and weâre gonna play it
And if you ask me how Iâm feeling
Donât tell me youâre too blind to see
Never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Like I said, it all comes back to Fazula/Swarmi. LoN SP, Vyr, all built on the back on Fazula. I think the Devs should aim for every class at a reasonable benchmark, give or take 5 GRs, and slowly change the meta till you can have a LoN Wiz OR LoN WD doing trash, a DH or Necro doing RGK, a Barb (or Crusader) pulling trash, etc.
It would take a lot of tweaks though, which is why they should have started..well, 2 years ago.
2 Likes
How about⌠Ummm
Go to blizz api,
Copy the generated json data
Go to convert json to excel website
Grab the excel sheet
Profit
Not as complicated as you are saying.