For high Paragon clears, the extra defence is no joke for some sets. I believe that is ignored in the correction? I’ve mostly put time into Typhon lately, but I expect it to handle like a different set between 3k and 10k Paragon. I guess it’ll be the same for many of the older sets with outdated (read: very little) damage reduction.
So that would be a reason to try to stick to clears not too far off the Paragon you want to correct to.
Well, I think that is actually an argument in favor of averaging the “bottom up” and “top down” clears in the way dmkt is doing.
Because the “bottom up” corrections sort of presume that you’d gain nothing from the extra defense of going up to 5k paragon, while the “top down” clears presume that you’d lose nothing from the defense lost by going down to 5k paragon.
But when you average them together, that really averages out as well.
ACTUALLY - This “might” be good for the DEV’s who are attempting to follow the BLIZZARD policy Nevalistus left uswith when she moved on, of “Balancing all the sets”
As any longterm player knows, there is a VERY big difference between GR131 and GR144.
As only my opinion which I expect nobody to share, if every set can clear solo 138-142, or 135-138, then in only my opinion, they have achieved a form of balance. To be clear, I mean every CLASS green set, not Blackthorne’s and the green Blacksmith’s sets.
I’m just going to go off on a tangent here with some thoughts, not really adding anything to this excellent thread.
I’d rather see them making the set a little bit better at handling density. Maybe add innate 50% AD somewhere?
(I’m sure Rage is going to shoot down this suggestion for math reasons, but the idea is to also improve Frenzy’s speed clears which can be a bit clunky)
I would be great if the Devs could also do the same for speed versions of builds, since that’s where the majority of players spend their time. It would be great if they added a leaderboard for 5-min clears since I think that would show a different facet of playstyle.
I mention this since almost all available data is centered on pushing, and it’s very difficult to see what players are using for individual builds to build paragon. I think it would be interesting to see that.
End tangent, you may carry on.
Repeating a request for an XP/h leaderboard. If not else, just to make a nerf on rats finally happen.
Haha, sorry buddy!
You actually could solve Frenzy’s density-clearing problems in this way, but it would take a lot more than 50% extra AD. The problem is that the Bastion’s chain splits up your damage more and more, the higher the density around you. So, even as your damage “should” be scaling up from AD, as the mobs get closer together, your damage is also scaling down, because of the Bastion’s split. Also, a lot of your “density-clearing” power comes from BR: Bloodshed, not AD, so the relative contribution of AD is fairly modest.
And, you are actually talking about speed clears, where grouping enemies is not really a thing, so the net value of AD would be significantly lower still.
So, off the top of my head, I think you’d probably need to add something like 500% AD to make a real difference.
Back when H90 was new, I wrote some stuff about the damage split of the chain, AD, and Bloodshed here and here.
If you can put away your pitchforks, I’d say entire scheme looks fine for now. Just because your favorite class can not clear 2 tiers ahead of where it is right now in 2 mins at 1k plvl by pressing left click only, you don’t have to stir the forums. Some of these mid-low performing builds are also part of certain 4 man strategies while they can not hit up GR150 solo, which makes this list all palatable for the overall.
On a closer look I agree that some builds that doesn’t cause performance issues or doesn’t gain too much passive benefits should be buffed. They said GR138 with 5k plvl clear would be footing, but developers have standards about effort requirement by player and performance for calculation traffic. This kind of changes gonna happen in future ofcourse.
In example, Jade Harvester is stacking too much damage over time effects so I can say it won’t be promoted for a long time unless it changes to some reliable burst. LoD Rapidfire is a seemingly plain build; I think it needs new toys regarding Spike Traps to incorporate to the build without affecting Natalya variation of Rapidfire too much. Trag’Oul and Pestilence Necromancer needs some different characteristics, just like Raekor Barbarian splitting away from Immortal King at the oncoming patch now.
All we do is await after we give feedback, no need to get frustrated over a video game.
Who is holding a pitchfork? And who is frustrated? 
Every time I mention that developers have standards about a build’s power level; be it the effort a build requires for minimal maintenance and desynchronized calculations pointing at the old engine, people call me a troll.
Compare their deep knowledge of the game with the hours they spent and going competitive over it. Shortly; people brag about their own knowledge just to complain about patch notes, being ignorant to practical side of things and blame developers of not playing their own game before even trying PTR. Every time.
Developer team is around 10 or more people, they don’t see what a mere player see. They have their own statistics and measurements about it in a scientific fashion. Also they are well aware why a build will not be promoted for mass player base.
When I try to describe it people going defensive over their favorite build just to insult me and I tell them just because it’s their favorite build, it doesn’t NEED to get buffed. This always backfires even though my intentions are not to flame or insult anyone’s knowledge. Game engine has limits and developers has to have standards which seemingly doesn’t fit yours.
Current table looks fine to me, and I’m sure someone somewhere will try to take my opinion as a fact and try to debate this. Hence why I said “put down your pitchforks”. If your favorite build is down that line, it will be up there when more elements can be incorporated into it (which allows it to take more risks where game can reward you) but there are limitations to it as well.
Just ignore him, man. There are much better ways of spending your time.
So a few things to point out on the “130 at 5k” benchmark. This was intended for the average player and pre-follower buff. Not to mention builds have continued to get stronger over time. So at a minimum taking into account the follower buff, a 133 at 5k average would be the new benchmark. Then take into account any power creep since blizzard said 130 at 5k. When the new era/season hits most builds will be boosted as well from the adjusted GR map spawn rates. IMO a new benchmark of 135 at 5k might be more realistic for the average player that pushes. Obviously players that don’t understand what pushing is or only speed farm don’t apply to this metric.
All good points, Chris, though it kind of calls into question the value of a benchmark. I mean, if your benchmark is going to change quite frequently, does it really have value? Can you even call it a benchmark?
IMO 5k at 130 should no longer be used. It’s garbage!!!
Yeah, I’m agreeing with you, if that wasn’t clear.
You were clear. For reference in era 12 I did 131@4247 without stomp or spear. Not sure if that can even be considered a real push. There were many clears in the 133 range with sub 4k paragon that era. Back then 130 at 5k was a realistic for the average player.
Also of interest: here are, to the best of my knowledge, ALL the current builds that have cleared 150 in a non-seasonal setting (including season 23), at any level of paragon, and the lowest paragon level to do so.
Inna Monk (Fire) (5247) *getting nerfed in 2.7.3
Twister Wizard (7127)
LoD WoL Monk (8433)
Marauder DH (8586)
Corpse Explosion LoD Nec (9604)
Arachyr WD (9649)
WW/Rend Wastes Barb (10132)
EB Firebird Wiz (10789)
Akkhan Bomb Crusader (11415) *getting nerfed in 2.7.3
Raekor HOTA Barb (11888) *ceases to exist in 2.7.3
LoD HOTA Barb (11892)
Rathma Necro (14339)
IK HOTA Barb (18610)
Zuni WD Poison Dart (19357)
I’ll never be satisfied until Static Charge and Lod LTK Monk builds are competitive again.
I really loved both those builds. Or, well, actually, I played a lot more Sunwuko LTK back when it was harder to manage your Wind stacks and it was a touch weaker than LoN.
Static Charge was a great build with an interesting playstyle. I’ve never really understood why they nerfed it as hard as they did. It wouldn’t have been hard to just tune it down a little. Or hell, just doing nothing would have been fine. There was a ton of power creep around that time, and that build would probably not have been OP even one season later.
A couple more additions to the 150 club:
AoV Crusader (16224)
Typhon Hydra (19386)
Hey, I have a plan, and was wondering if you wanted to help.
I’m going to be recording clear data for every class set (and no set) at the end of each week of the season. That’ll let us get a good look at how the clear numbers change as the season progresses and the paragon goes up.
The spreadsheet is ready to go: Weekly adjusted clears of all sets - Google Sheets
Now that Maxroll can present that info, it’s a relatively simple job, but some help with entering the data would be much appreciated. You interested?
Also, are you on Reddit?