would have liked to see all those threads detailing how wsg removal is beneficial for the game because i certainly cant find them.
on the other side, there are realy plenty of threads detailing how it kills pvp balance but ill try to aggregate the most important points
Stuns in D2 have some properties that makes them potentially game breaking in pvp:
no diminishing return
no cooldown
can be reapplied faster than the target can get out of the recovery animation, even with the highest fhr breakpoints
that means that skills like mindblast, shockwave, leapā¦ can be used to permanently take other players out of the game without any way for them to get out of this. Its not hard either.
wsg was the only way to break those infinite stunlocks. It didnt make them useless, its not overpowered, it just prevented the overpowered design of stuns to completely obliterate balance in pvp.
some classes like the amazon or necros to a bit lesser extend rely heavily on it to be viable in pvp. a class like the assasin that can amass such crazy stunlocks that even with wsg you could have a hard time escaping from a really good one suddenly become completely broken.
yes, if you join a random duel game and casual player 1 plays against casual player 2, chances are they are not playing on a level high enough to consistently abuse those stun mechanics. Slightly above that level, it allready is heavily relied on to balance out matchups. In todays D2, pvp balance is comparably to other games of this genre, absolutely amazing. A good player can play any of the classes on the highest level, this is 100% gone without wsg.
while wsg staying in the game has no implication for players that dont use it because they might just not take part in pvp above any kind of open casual duel game, so they might not mind if sometimes they get abused by a assassin that knows what she does. but on a slightly higher level, pvp rly is in danger and there are a lot of players who play this game just for pvp and they dont take anything away from others that dont, by asking for wsg to stay
no my argument isnāt that āno one caredā, its that the amount of people who would literally refund this game over just TCP/IP removal is so low its almost literally 0 compared to the customer base that will purchase D2R.
You can still play with friends and family on NL or ladder, nothing stopping you. you need internet to download D2R in the first place, and you can literally get high speed internet from space now through SpaceX. I live in the middle of the woods with perfect connection. there is no good argument (that ive seen) that TCP/IP removal was a big deal in any way shape or form in 2021.
You can access to descent internet So everyone in the world does now?
There are plenty of places that dont have easy access to good, stable internet. Being able to download the game and play it offline and with Lan added a lot to the value of the game for some players in some countries and locations.
Doesnt impact you, so you dont think it matters to people. Cool, glad you dont care that it impacts other people around the world.
Doesnt mean people werent upset about its removal.
No, not anymore thereās not. Iām currently on the limited ābetaā but SpaceX said by the end of NEXT MONTH the entire planet, as inā¦ everywhere on earth, will have the same access to SpaceXās internet. And if your only argument against this is ābro we cant afford $99/mo!ā then youāre also too broke to be spending $40 on a remaster.
well this is brought up sometimes as a solution, the thing is:
if instead of leaving wsg, a mechanic that has heavily influenced D2 pvp, you instead rebalance a whole package of skills, the likelyhood is extremely high that the pvp balance will be altered and possibly destroyed just as much or even worse, rebalancing skills would now even start affecting pve. Stunlocks are a integral part of D2pvp. many builds rely on locking players down, but there needs to be a way for the victim to break it, removing them outright is arguably just as bad as removing wsg.
personaly, i highly doubt blizzard is willing to rebalance actual Skills. I think that is way past the line they drew of which parts of the game they are willing to alter for D2r.
Personally, my prefered solution would be for them to introduce wsg as a official feature. Just get rid of the bug status and introduce it as a official mechanic and make casual players aware of it so they feel less intimidated by the name glitch
Stated in my last reply that i never stated no one cares. why are you repeating that strawman as if that was ever my argument? lol.
Everyone on earth will have access to high speed internet literally by D2:Rās launch. TCP/IP removal wasnt big, and repeating āum like 9 people do care!ā isnāt an argument for it being big.
Honestly i wanted to discuss this with someone because i didnāt know how to word it. Its not technically gameplay related but the newer graphics engine alone seemed to change how i played and experienced the game. Your character reactions seem different and its SO much more detailed its almost overwhelming. It also seems so much darker and scarier, especially in dungeons. I wanted to include it on the list, but its kind of a given since its a remaster. Has there ever been a remaster with zero changes to the graphics? lol
it was a pipedream. SpaceX and also OneWeb are making it a reality, thankfully. The whole planet will get high speed internet regardless of location next month. If youāre spending the $40 on a remaster, you can afford decent internet. Please come up with literally any other argument lol.
maybe im biased, but i feel like there is now so much information out there why wsg is desperately needed for pvp to stay healthy, a lot of threads.
on the other hand pretty much the only argument i find on why it shouldnt be brought back is that it is called a glitch, and glitches need to go. Or that they instead should rebalance all the stun skills, which i allready lined out why i think this is probably even worse and the likelyhood is big they (hopefully) wont, i would be scared of the result.
thing is, wsg is not even a real glitch because the mechanic it uses was purposely in the game. every weapon brings its own fhr breakpoints so in order to switch from one weapon to the other the game has to reset the current animation otherwise there cant be a transition. Its essentialy clever use of a game mechanic that was purposely in the game (allthough originally ofc. for a different reason)
would just be a shame if we ruined pvp for a lot of dedicated players for nothing but the fact that we can say a āglitchā has been removed because its called a āglitchā and therefor has to go.
I definately see your point. Though I doubt the developers envisioned players having to spam swap their weapons to break stun. Thatās why I wonder if just adding some kind of stun resistance/diminishing return to all PCs. A blanket change isnāt really rebalancing all the skills is it? Doesnāt have to effect monsters.
Just offering a counter argument here. I defiantly am not adamant about any of this nor would I ādie on this hillā lol. PvP is not my main gameplay driver so itās better to let PvP people decide what happens to PvP. In so far as it doesnāt have far reaching effects on those not into PvP.
That is what compels me to suggest maybe fixing the system as a solution rather than relying on an unintended exploit as stun locking people who are not versed in pvp glitches seems broken.
Seems like maybe People shouldnāt have to spam weapon switch just to get out of stuns I guess. Keeping WSG seems to help PvP. Fixing broken stun locks might help everyone including those simply trying not to be PKd.
And have no doubt, it would not be impossible to add a diminishing return to stuns. Itās well within their power.
But again is is merely an observation Iām willing to concede is wrong if the arguments are compelling
i dont think they invisioned anything when it comes to pvp tbhā¦ I think pvp was just a random feature they added without much thought and it turned out that players actually managed to make something great and balanced out of it with the tools they had.
i dont believe they will change skills (do you think they will/should? honestly?)
as i mentioned before i think the best way would be to introduce wsg as a feature and just eliminate the glitch/bug status it has. The negative touch seems to be the only real concern for most players.
obvious EXCELLENT changes
(graphics, more stash, cow king, more content for solo playerā¦ )
obvious BAD CHANGES
(characters model are meh, LAN loss)
Some changes that seems not so important, but noone asked for (EBUG, WSG) it has impact on valuable item you can loot, AND pvp.
The sad thing about that wsg bug , i am pretty confident that most ppl crusading against dont event know what it is and have/will never used it or faced it in their entire d2 life time.
There existence had no negative impact on anyone, but this being changed has impact for quality of pvpā¦ so removing it is a regression. You see the point ? it was bad for noone, and good for pvp balance. You remove it ā without adding alternatives optionsā, the only result is āpvp will be worseā
There is also bad communication from blizzard aroud motivation around all this, so noone know what is next āsurpriseā. Who knows ?
will grief be nerf ? will baalxrun xp change ? will merc in the futur break eth weapons ? some skills will be rebalanced (nerfed) ? maybe for some random engine or technical stuff WW frames will change or who knows.
This doesnt give Trust. We were all excepting āthe same game in HD playable on modern computersā, but we see itās not.
We also know that once the game is released in production, there is a very high change it will be set in stone āforeverā and there will be no super-patch-that-fixe-or-add-promise except worst crash Bugs familly.
So the only timing to try to improve things, is now. Point problem & yield until everything is the BEST POSSIBLE.
Well, TLDR ,
my only point is there are wonderfull things AND bad things together.
Why you had the need to create bad or controversial changes ? this is sad, cause we all love D2 and want the best D2R possible. ā¦
We prefer discover {7 good news}, that {11 good + 4 bads}.
That entirely depends on the community. If all those in favor of bringing WSG back instead shouted for diminished returns on stuns do you think they would ignore this forever? Especially if the PVM crowd supports it too?
Personally I think they should do things like ātry this change for a month or in some cases a season, if you all hate it we will toss itā personally I think this is a good way to find mutually valued improvements. (I doubt they will do it but I stand by the statement all the same)
I am not against change. I donāt think D2 1.14 or what ever was the perfect version of itself. I think that hoping for fixes to things is ok and that the D2 community (despite the uproar) would probably accept certain other concessions if they make good sense
The modern BNET and global servers so far seem to be a negative. Latency on the open beta was pretty bad, rubber banding was awful. Iād rather local servers than having to send my data literally to the other side of the planet and suffering the less responsive game with more server desync. It was pretty bad on the open beta, constantly dealing with it.
Many of the other changes are exactly what the game needed, but they can definitely go further, one example is the gamepad hotkey bar being available to KB + Mouse users. I would also buff lots of spells that become useless in mid-late game, particularly those that lack synergies.
The idea of half the elemental builds relying on Infinity to even function in Hell mode, while masses of players run around with HOTA hammer paladins because they are infinitely stronger than most other builds for a fraction of the build cost is gonna get old.
i dont enjoy any of the newer blizzard titles. The games they produce today have lost the charm of what they once created imo.
hence i for the same reason dont want them to overly alter the remaster of one of those genre defining classics like diablo 2.
if you enjoy the games they produce currently, i can see you having a different opinion on this. but i would argue that its sad that a classic remaster like D2r would have to be updated to incorporate changes that bring it closer to current blizzard games, when there is a continous stream of new ones down the line yet we only have one D2.
