10 year break from D3. Here's what I think about it now!

Is this technique something that the Diablo 3 devs have officially stated to use, and for that stated design goal? I’m not sure if I fully agree with it, and think that there are other avenues of testing available to them that don’t result in needing to have set items give +10,000% damage in order to be relevant.

Okay, but that still doesn’t solve the issue that there still is no logical balancing of “simple to play but maximum power is limited” with “technical to play but maximum power is high” archetype builds in Diablo 3. Do you personally prefer it this way?

Because, as the game is designed now, there is usually only one optimal rune choice at end-game. If you could add in a second simultaneous rune modifier, that would give additional choices to the player to that ideally aren’t all the same. Many skill runes have one rune that is by far the best, then 3 or 4 that are tied for second, and 1 that is complete garbage. Let players choose one of the 3 or 4 runes that are tied for second as an additional flavoring.

Yes I get your reasoning in theory, but in practice it doesn’t work. If it did work, you’d see more people using Blizzard. You don’t.

My suggestions make it more convenient to organize items/loadouts, make it faster, and improve quality of life. That’s a good thing.

How so? If exp/hour were normalized for all endgame activities, your T16 farm builds gain the same EXP/hour as your GR speed builds as your GR push builds etc, so you increase build diversity by allowing players to play what they want rather than what is most efficient.

Good game design doesn’t need to make rewards satisfying by making the journey annoying.

Yes, I am aware of the delicate nature of this. That is why I’m trying to identify the root causes of this and solve them at their source (excessive +dmg multipliers that are distributed unequally among items)

Yes I know that. I’m making the case for all runes to be relevant most of the time, and not just in niche circumstances.

Then you didn’t understand the way I would limit the scope. Under my system, you can’t just pump out 100 paragon levels in a day past paragon 1500. Read the part about the additional exp curve.

No, that’s a well known thing among developers. They gameplay test. On what parameters? It’s clear to me that they care about interaction requirement, because otherwise they can not keep people away from high soaring builds if they were to be easy to play. Key word is comfort here and struggle always makes it interesting.

They don’t officially teach you how to do game design. That’s not their responsibility, nor they’re any eligible as some of this process is highly subjective still. However, if you interact with them over social media, and speak to them on their streams, you get the gist of their design pillars.

Perhaps…

In a total, you usually have 2-3 skillrune to pick for your initiator skill of a push build, at end game. Because your initiator skill (usually a self-buff for resource battery or crowd control) or trigger skill (that you have to cast for getting some bonuses from Set) is rather flexible but it also depends on your equipment of choice.
Your main skill is usually fixated and accepts no competition so developers don’t have to worry if things ever go out of hand, when they buff this or that elemental type or Sets.

Rest of the skillrunes are meant for Set Dungeons, leveling up, zdps specs or speedfarming. Of course there are ultimately useless skillrunes that no one use but those are rather rare.
I tried a similar suggestion to yours, years ago but appears developers gave up on tweaking core skills. However, their most recent change just applied for this Season with Monk and Demon Hunter before this one. You may hope but I don’t see if anyone can convince them as their design is always statistical.

That impacts the backdraws a build has to consider for taking defensive or offensive measures at their free slots. So even though it sounds logical, it also affects the build’s trade-off elements. This decision usually depends on the fundamentals of the class and Set’s gameplay itself.
That’s why you shouldn’t expect one build’s traits to apply to everything.

No such thing implied. Blizzard is heavy on calculations and Meteor has only fewer tics. Also initial Meteor hit has to be aimed for it to grant benefits depends on how many targets hit and its crowd control is quickly resisted by monsters. This is why Blizzard is held back and only dedicated to Typhon’s.
I have never implied that people should use Blizzard on every build or anything on that line. Currently, Blizzard is dedicated to Typhon’s Set and that’s enough.

(shrug) It only increases the data that has to be tracked. Perhaps they solve this down the road and grant us personal stash space but I wouldn’t count on that. They have to know each item’s location at all times and allowing extra storage doesn’t sound like a good idea.

Currently any speedbuild running GR75 gains a lot more and faster compared to clearing any single bounty, but bounties still can beat this in terms of quantity per session. Until you hit around 1800-2000+ plvl, bounties are legit sources of experience and diverse amount of materials. After 2k plvl, its impact diminishes and that’s fine.

It’s a silly idea that I’m finishing any T16 bounty to gain comparable experience to an equivalent time trial with restrictions, though. In T16, every speedrun build run amok with Goldwrap, enjoy being nigh invincible while taking their time picking up items. Compared to that, Greater Rift rips you away from that privilege and forces you to focus on the combat in limited time span as a test of might.

That’s only one ring, you can use many different jewelry options to speedfarm. Go read speedfarm guides, none of them suggests CoE as a staple. CoE is meant for high tier content because it’s actually slow and its completely independent of your attributes; you can’t make it cycle faster but can manipulate it to a degree.

On practice, since your build usually can deal for one, at most two different elemental types you may have one peak cycle, but it’s followed by 2-4 down time cycles. Instead of waiting all of that, you can get a straight damage multiplier or crowd control and watch T16 monsters melt anyway as long as you have supporting legendaries right.

Its nature also includes cognitive skill checks and mechanical demand of interaction. Comfort is just one aspect, and as it increases the demand of interaction has to plummet equally.

That would stand if game wasn’t a huge time trial on itself that restrict the player with difficulty and forcing them to find the most efficient way. On paper, your idea sounds nice but it also makes the whole ordeal harder to control or foresee if there are no dedicated variables for this or that gameplay.

Developers keep it that way to control variables so they don’t have to mind the least efficient or most efficient way of playing while tweaking the multiplier variables. You may wanna create a highly diverse system, but in practice this is just extra work to keep track of. When you decide to buff a Set or nerf a Set, you have to mind if it affect this or that skillrune now.

If I didn’t read wrong, you were speaking of getting people another buff for going past each 100 paragons; past plvl 1500 or not, it doesn’t make sense.
We’re only 2 months into the season 28, and I know there are dedicated players out there with 3k-5k paragon levels. I don’t wanna even think non-seasonal with 7-8k plvl players. What’s the upper limiter if this bonus were to apply past plvl 1500+?

Thank you for reading and for the reply! Do you share most of my opinions, or do you think I’m in error in some of them?

I’m sure it has, but I felt I needed to get it off my chest. Would you say there is a general consensus among the player base about what is “wrong” with the game?

:saluting_face:

While a lot of these concepts are fresh and new for you as a returning player, just about everything you’ve brought up has been talked about before. Many, many, many, many, many, many, times. Your overall view is headed in the right direction but Diablo 3 isn’t a 40-hours played and you’re ready to review game. To be able to grasp some of the higher level concepts it takes hundreds of hours of playing time across many different classes and builds.

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Congrats OP, you have managed to reiterate what sensible folk have been saying on this forum for quite some time. I agree with all your points.

Not to be a nay-sayer, but they won’t change a thing at this point. They want you to move on to D4, which is actually a worse iteration of the series than ever.

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Okay, if that’s not their official take on it, then I’m not sure how to respond to that other than “try something else because the current strategy to balance the game isn’t working”.

Perhaps…yes? Can you elaborate why? Why do you prefer a strategy that is so restrictive and forces cookie cutter builds?

How is it flexible when so many of the “plus 10,000% damage” modifiers only apply to one skill or a small subset of skills? How is it flexible when there are some skills with a combination of items that give multiple hundreds of percent increase in damage and some skills that don’t have anything?

Your and my understanding of what’s rare are different. As far as I can tell, and as far as I can tell from the build guides that I’m now looking through, there are a great deal of runes that aren’t even considered in any capacity.

If those impacts were as huge as you’re implying the items that add rune effects would be more important in end game build guides, like Visage of Gunes, Cosmic Strand, and Akkhan’s Addendum. Even Angel Hair Brain, which gives Punish the effect of EVERY RUNE isn’t top tier.

The only items now that add rune effects and are also top tier are the ones that add runes effects that are either already good, or they add damage, or both. See Fate’s Vow, or Razeth’s Volition, or Mempo of Twilight, or The Twisted Sword.

Then what’s your point, and why are you trying to justify the way Blizzard is currently implemented? Also Typhon’s Set is dedicated to Hydra, not Blizzard. Blizzard doesn’t have any items that buff it.

(Hail Hydra)

No, as a response to your comment about player sync and data, I offered solutions that would limit that. Also, having account wide followers would cut down on the amount of new games being made to transfer items between characters, which would cut down on lag too.

Ultimately this behavior is due to the power level imbalances and power creep. By dialing these things back and doing a rebalance of the difficulty levels, things can be more in check. This is the overall point of my original post.

That doesn’t refute my point that CoE is BiS for far too many builds, and it’s annoying to play with.

Again, that’s nice as a philosophy, but it’s not implemented in the game as it currently exists.

This argument basically boils down to, “it’s too much work”. This is Blizzard’s job. They are paid to do this. Paid with our money.

Let me paraphrase my idea in a different way -

Season 28 Paragon 8000 takes what, 200 hours of play? 300? Let’s just say it’s 300 for the sake of this example. In my plan, reaching Paragon 2000 takes about the same amount of time too.

In my plan, there are also meaningful choices to pick from besides +main stat. I listed a few examples of paragon only passives that would change the way a character plays and make things interesting. The players can then decide for themselves whether they want to invest in more main stat, or to pick one of these potentially build defining passives. These passives are strong, but balanced by the fact that they incur an increasingly large paragon point cost the more of them you take.

It worked for a decade. You’re late to the party. Enjoy your stay.

Because they’re efficient but also allow you to have some experimenting if you don’t limit yourself to the online guides. Playing for a small while won’t give you this feeling or any taste, so your observations will be superficial at best.

There are actually some Sets that apply those bonuses to many different skills, yet people only pick the most efficient ones. If this don’t tell you anything or drop any clues, then I don’t know what could tell you the importance of efficiency.

Also I clearly said that you’re flexible on initiator skills that you use as an opening move wading in to the combat. This can be a trigger skill for activating Set bonuses or a mass debuff related to the supporting Legendary item you got.
Only main skills are usually pretty narrow picks; usually main skills have single, but sometimes two adequate skill runes for pushes. This allow developer to control the variables and determine which elemental would be a viable pick and won’t go overboard while keeping the diverse tasks for different skill runes.

Most of the popular guides don’t care about some skill runes but those skipped details usually can offer some comfort in Set Dungeons. Some players overlook zDPS specs as they don’t like it, and they don’t even recognize potential wild cards on existing traditional builds for speedfarming GRs. Some players also ignore leveling up process since they usually get power leveled by a friend; that’s why they get puzzled when looking at skills outlay.
To add, not everything is written on online guides; your equipment, cognitive skills, expected paragon level and comfort, differ from those guide writers and people just ignore that fact.

Aren’t there any unused skill runes that are never utilized at any aspect? There obviously are, because you can not design a flawless system with this many variables. But, those are usually rare examples and you can figure a use for them if you try. At worst, they appear to fit nicely as a part of a very niché build.

All of those items can be cubed and they meant to be cubed; sometimes equipped depending on the build. This is what it is, so you wouldn’t take something else in their place for more offense or defense.

That’s exactly the point I’m speaking about; trade offs are not meant for taking it for granted, they should have a weight. If those were to be given freely, they’d make this trade off obsolete. These silent backdraws supposed to have a meaning and limit those builds to their rightful place.
Some of those legendary items are only meant for speedfarming or bounties, thus granting you some utility. That doesn’t mean they’re trash and has to be freely handed out.

I explained why it stands as an utility and most likely why it will stand that way. Go read guides about Typhon’s, you’ll see why they suggest Blizzard.

Or you thought it will but in practice it’s much different. Server has to know where the items are and always gonna synchronize them regardless of what imaginary solutions you can come up with. Making Followers account wide just removes potential item holders and that doesn’t solve anything.
Thirteen tabs is the highest number that server can synchronize for a single session and allowing more just gonna cause performance issues as stated by former Community Manager. Don’t you worry though, Diablo Immortal has a clan-wide stash and probably a feature like this will arrive at Diablo 4 as well.

Have I told you that you are a decade late and haven’t played this game enough? Dialing back these numbers could hurt the comparison and scaling of power as it stands, that’s first.
Secondly, dialing those numbers back also require you to redesign the scaling and entirety of variables for months to keep the end game as it is like today. Diablo 3 served its time and developers spoke about repeating seasons after S30.

CoE have potential alternatives (ie. FnR with Squirt’s trio) and it is never a staple or an option for a speedfarm build if you care about your comfort. It’s annoying to play with because it’s an independent chronometer but that’s why it’s also equally rewarding. At its down time of cycles, you have to gather aggro, endure attacks or stack Stricken; sometimes all at once.
Stop including it at your farming and GR speed builds lest you get burnt out from it. If you have low paragon level, you’ll get burnt out from this because you’d feel like carrying this strong multiplier everywhere but it still have alternatives.

Thought process and obstacles are also part of determining a build’s power factors. A pre-determined build requiring less calculations per cast, is as important as its flow of combat. These philosophies are indeed practiced in the game, and I believe you’ll see this if you try to play a little more and further.

And they most likely spent it all along this decade.

So you are speaking about redesigning the experience curve just because after a decade? Hilarious. Good luck with that and everything else. Play the game more indepth, you may have a change of this feeling later on.

That’s too bad. I would have liked to hear your opinion on it!

Whether or not they will or want to change anything at this point is unrelated to our ability to discuss the meta, which I think is a worthwhile endeavor.

For a game that was supposedly great when you fired it up after a 10 year break whats with the 10 page essay on complaints?

There are a few games I love but could still write a whole long essay with complaints. Fallout 4 is one of my favorite games of all time and I could tell you 2 dozen things I don’t like about it.

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I know you decided on 300 “for sake of argument” but before you setttled on that, let me inform you that I have 444 hours and 28 min on just my DH this season and and I’m only 3070 paragon. Now I admit that I’m not the most efficient of players but still, if I’m using me as an example and you’re saying it should take a person (in your new paragon) to reach 2000 as it takes to hit 8000 and gaining paragon isn’t as simple as just doubling the time gets you double the paragon, then we’re talking over 1200 hours in a season just to sniff your 2000 paragon. Bot makers are gonna love that, lol.

See, what I’m saying is, your idea is just dumb because you might think, well if they lower it 2000 at least I’ve got a chance to get to what to what 1700 or 1800, and I’m telling you, you won’t.

In the end, even in your dream scenario instead of reaching maybe a 1000 paragon, you’re going to be hitting something like 700 or so meaning, again, you’re solution doesn’t actually change anything and could even possibly set you further behind people with more time to play.

Just sayin’.

Edit:
Just checked the rank 1 DH in Season and he has around your 8000 mark, how much time does he have in the season, you might ask…

Close to a whopping 1600 hours playing this season, mostly in Wizard at 1164 hours and his next closest with over 300 in DH.

LOL!!! Good luck hitting your 2000 paragon mark in your new and improved paragon.

But why? How does that make for a better game despite all of the negative side-effects that I laid out from that particular kind of design?

Is it the majority? Some of the feedback I’m getting imply that the majority like it the way it is. Do my suggestions for the game line up with what your personal fixes wishlist would be?

Just because a decade has passed (time functions that way!) does not mean it worked for a decade.

While I definitely would not consider D3 to be anywhere close to ‘great’, liking something and pointing out issues, are not mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite.
The alternative is only fanboy logic.

Probably depends on how we define the majority here.
It makes sense that the majority of remaining players in D3 likes the game the way it is. That is why they remain. But they might also be 0.01% of the people who played D3 at some point.

However, yeah, I too think your list gets around many of the major issues people have brought up.

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I don’t think you understand my point. My idea isn’t to make it easier for players to reach a high paragon level. If that was the case, I wouldn’t have added the harsh exp curve. If all I’m doing is turning Paragon 8000 into Paragon 2000 without any significant changes, then there wouldn’t be a point to it. The problem you think I’m solving isn’t the problem I’m trying to solve.

Read what I wrote in the OP again -

Problem 14: Endless grinding for Paragon and +main stat passives are boring. Grinding is fun, but making players do it forever in order to brute force their build to work is not. There needs to be more than just grinding for gradual increases in damage, which is what main stat gives you.

After a certain point, boosting up your paragon levels to an insanely high level isn’t indicative of skill. It’s indicative of time spent and/or botting/account sharing prowess. Also, high level GR clears are more impressive when they’re done with lower paragon levels, and they’re easier to compare against each other. When you’re comparing one player’s GR clear with another, and their paragon level in the current system is 6000 points of difference, how are you supposed to reliably determine if it’s the player skill that determined the score or the player’s boosted main stat?

If you cap paragon and implement diminishing returns on its effectiveness, you discourage a mindless grind at endgame and you encourage actual skill that involves gameplay and build choice.

And the point I’m making and is going completely over your head apparently is…

If you set it, let’s just say, in your dream scenario that 1900 isn’t that different but reaching 2000, then what we’re talking about is there isn’t a point to grind out from 1900 to 2000, because there’s really no difference. And if 2000 is significantly stronger than 1900 and it takes as long to grind to 2000 as it does 8000 then your idea doesn’t change anything.

Anyway, to give you a clue as to how paragon works now, I think the calculation for paragon as it stands now is to go from paragon 4000 to 5000 takes roughly the same amount of experience as it takes to go from paragon 1 to 4000.

My point is, a grind is a grind. What you really want is to put, as you put it, 300 hours in the game and reach the same power or close to someone as someone who puts rougly 1.5 X as much time in or someone who puts 5X as much time in. And I’m sorry but that’s senseless. Why should someone that puts tons more time in the game wind up at the same or only slightly stronger than someone who doesn’t?

Again, if you don’t want to compete with paragon 8000 players in the system that stands now, then don’t compete with them, don’t ask for the rest of the player base to settle for your measely amount of hours that you put in the game.

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Check out this thread and you’ll see exaclty what your looking for…

Top Adjusted Clear for each class so far in Season 28 - General Discussion - Diablo 3 Forums (blizzard.com)

There’s even a linked site in the thread that allows you to put in your paragon and GR Clear and see where you measure up with higher paragon players and can give a rough idea of your skill level compared to others but the site seems to be broken at the moment.

The baseline is Paragon 5000 but the calculations work for lower paragon as well.

Edit:

Anyway, different paragon levels are calculable and most instances massive amounts of paragon only equate 2-5 GR Tiers and any difference that is within that or beyond is player skill solely.

Edit # such and such…lol

What I’m saying is most players think they’d compete with higher paragon players if they just had more paragon when in actuality there skill level may be well below them as well.

I know it doesn’t change anything if 2000 is significantly stronger than 1900. That’s why I didn’t make it stronger. The difference between 1900 and 2000 is only 100 main stat, which is hardly anything.

There are still ways to improve your character over time. All I’m doing is lessening the importance of the most braindead method. This is the same design philosophy that governs Diablo 2. There is a max level in Diablo 2. Does that make it any less desirable to grind out lots of hours in that game? No, it doesn’t.

It has nothing to do with me not wanting to compete. I’m trying to make the game more challenging.

No, what you’re trying to do is make time in game worthless. At least be honest. You’re saying, “I want to put 300 hours in the game and I want that to matter as much as someone that put 450 or 1600 or 2000 or 10,000.” And I’m sorry, friend, but that makes no sense. Especially when you consider that there’s non-season as well.

What you would do, is make season the one and only way to play and the rollover at end of season wouldn’t matter at all. People with tons more time would be competing with people with much less. That’s also unfair.

Edit:

You took a 10 year break from the game, explain to me why someone who was away from the game should be competing with people who’ve been playing the game for that 10 years?

Generally speaking, I tend to agree with both those idioms. However, the point of those idioms are that the unforseen consequences of changes are not worth the benefits of those changes. I don’t think there are any unforeseen consequences here that can’t just be patched out again. We are living in the modern age of gaming with games that are developed in iterations. This is especially true of Diablo 3 which has seasons - a game element that is designed for temporary testing of new concepts.

Why obviously? My mind can be changed. You just need to make your case with logical reasons that demonstrate progress towards a stated game design goal.

2000 is equivalent to 8000 only in time spent. This isn’t about ruining competition. The goal is to increase competition and make it more relevant. And reduce the impact of botting.

No, again, I know I editted in but the question is, why should you, who took a 10 year break from the game be competing with people who’ve been playing for that 10 year span?

This is what non season does. But your idea, unless you’re saying that your paragon limit only applies to season, which also makes no sense, would cause you to be competing with people that have played tons and tons more than you.

You took a 10 year break, and all of sudden, you want to be treated the same as people who didn’t? Talk about unfair, lol.